The great copper fouling lie

[Pathfinder76]

For years and years the gun cleaning market has been awash with the latest and greatest copper solvents known to man. Copper will degrade accuracy and we need to figure out a way to remove it safely and quickly so you can be back driving tacks tomorrow.

While all this may be true, copper is the easy unwanted guest to evict. His loser brother is another matter. Why carbon fouling has largely been ignored for the last century is a mystery. It is just as detrimental to accuracy as copper and 100x harder to remove. It’s literally a diamond in the rough.

Benchrest shooters have quietly attacked it forever. They say necessity is the mother of invention and it was one of these guys that brought the abrasive JB Bore Paste to market. Carried in Kroil it was probably the only thing actually taking carbon out of throats for years.

Last night I pulled my 7MM Remington Magnum out to clean it. I’ve put 100 rounds down it in that last little bit here and decided to switch to guilding metal from solid copper for an upcoming antelope hunt. I’ll be figuring drops out to 600 yards or so and wanted to start fresh.

I put wipe out patch out in the bore and after letting it sit for 15 minutes I patched it out. The bore scope showed the copper was gone. Not so with the carbon fouling. Because it was late I threw more wipe out in there and let it sit overnight. It did not touch the carbon to any real degree so out came the abrasives.

I use IOSSO on the same brand of brushes. A 7MM brush first and then after I got tired of that I went to a 30 caliber brush. It probably took north of 100 short stroking repetitions to find steel in the throat.

Now I can’t remember whether I bore scoped my last cleaning. So it may be more than just the last 100 rounds of carbon present. No guarantees there. But what I can guarantee is that even when your patches are coming out whiter than the driven snow, your barrel isn’t clean. Not even close. Whether that matters to you or not is up to you.

[MOUNTAIN MICKEY]

General Motors----Combustion Chamber Conditioner---part number 993026--removes carbon fouling. Spay in, let it sit and wipe out--oil barrel done. Just like removing copper fouling.

[fps plus]

Suzuki carb cleaned works well

[catnthehat]

Many of the engine tuning sprays work pretty well on carbon, Mercury Quicksilver Power Tune is in fact ( or at east was the last time I checked) sold by Sinclair international .
I use it as well as Amzoil, depending on which can I grab, and used JB's for years.
I also use CLR o the throat and leade many say that is a no-no, it works however, all a person has to do is make sure the barrel is well flushed with alcohol after.
My son has had really good results with Montana extreme as well.
Cat

[pikergolf]

After a range session I always soak my barrel in Bore Techs C4 overnight before the rest of my routine. Helps keep the carbon ring at bay for the most part. After roughly 200-300 rds I get after it with the paste a little bit.

[6.5 shooter]

I use IOSSO as well and their nylon brushes. The brushes are a bit more expensive but worth it IMHO.
My routine is 1-2 patch's with the proper jag using wipe out and accelerant, leave sit for a few minutes. Use an old brush (from the last cleaning) with a couple patches wrapped around the bristles, fairly liberally apply the IOSSO to the combo, run through the bore at least twice (chamber to muzzle only). Swap out the old brush for a new one apply more IOSSO and scrub the bore a couple more passes (If really dirty I will short stroke but I am not a fan). Depending on the chambering, I will then install a large enough brush to clean up the chamber/throat area with a small amount of IOSSO. By turning the brush in the chamber area will also help to get rid of the dreaded carbon ring. I then install a couple of patch's on the brush to clean up the chamber. Final step for the chamber is a bit of alcohol followed by a light oil, then mop dry. I Now re install my now old bore brush (or a good jag) back on the cleaning rod, run a couple dry patch's through the bore, run an alcohol patch (To help remove any solvents left in the bore) then oil (Balistol or any good gun oil to stop rust) then dry mop to remove any oil left over.
As a precaution I will dry mop my bore prior to shooting the rifle again just incase I missed any oil. I always use a bore guide if possible.

[Pathfinder76]

I know of competition shooters that chuck their cleaning rods in a drill. Short stroking a nylon brush is a nothing burger. I’ve been doing it for years and have never seen detrimental results.

[pikergolf]

Originally Posted by Pathfinder76

I know of competition shooters that chuck their cleaning rods in a drill. Short stroking a nylon brush is a nothing burger. I’ve been doing it for years and have never seen detrimental results.

I have not done that but I have taken the next up size bronze brush coated the tip with Iosso and pushed it into the chamber to just stopping before the lands and spun it my hand a hundred revolutions. That removes the carbon ring as well.

[Ackleyman]

I use a chamber cleaning kit from Plenty O Patches. A short rod that you put a foam donut on the end then a larger patch over it so you dont wear out donut. It has a plastic A corn nut to secure and avoid damage , soak donut with bore cleaner and just spin rod. It's a must have , had a small spot of bolt lug grease that got on chamber face [at a shoot] and could not close bolt. Quick and easy with the foam donut.

[marxman]

Every time this subject comes up people chime in with their favorite carbon solvent and say it works but I call bs. Nothing touches carbon as a solvent and penetration is very limited and nonexistant once you get down to the hard carbon. I have not used jb with a bare bronze brush but I suspect the bristles push it aside I use a patch over an undersized brush for a tight fit and the abrasive works well that way. I get my barrels pretty clean and I see now downside to getting your barrel clean regularly

[marxman]

Engine carbon is not blasted on at 60,000 psi then ironed on with with a passing bullet

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by marxman

Every time this subject comes up people chime in with their favorite carbon solvent and say it works but I call bs. Nothing touches carbon as a solvent and penetration is very limited and nonexistant once you get down to the hard carbon. I have not used jb with a bare bronze brush but I suspect the bristles push it aside I use a patch over an undersized brush for a tight fit and the abrasive works well that way. I get my barrels pretty clean and I see now downside to getting your barrel clean regularly

I agree, once a carbon rings is formed, the material is VERY hard and it is difficult to remove. I have not found a solvent that will dissolve a well defined and formed carbon ring.

For those, I do something similar to what you describe, use a .284 brush in a .30 bore, wrap it with 0000 steel wool, then coat it in JB paste. It takes a while focusing on just the area with the ring but it does get rid of carbon rings. However I have found Hoppes and Butches Bore shine, if used regularly, keeps carbon rings away. If you don't allow the ring to start to from, it is by far the easiest way to deal with them.

Copper fouling has never been much of an issue for me, even on used guns I acquired, and it is very easy to remove with stuff like Wipeout/Patchout.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by marxman

Every time this subject comes up people chime in with their favorite carbon solvent and say it works but I call bs. Nothing touches carbon as a solvent and penetration is very limited and nonexistant once you get down to the hard carbon. I have not used jb with a bare bronze brush but I suspect the bristles push it aside I use a patch over an undersized brush for a tight fit and the abrasive works well that way. I get my barrels pretty clean and I see now downside to getting your barrel clean regularly

Bore scope is the only eay to tell if your barrel and chamber are clean , and I check our match rifles on a regular basis to make sure .
Cat

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Bore scope is the only eay to tell if your barrel and chamber are clean , and I check our match rifles on a regular basis to make sure .
Cat

I agree with respect to the Bore scope. First one I bought was a great many years ago. It was made by Hawkeye and they were expensive. If I remember right the first one I paid $400 for, more than 45 years ago, and that was a hell of a lot of money in 1980. There were also quite delicate and had to be stored in a hard case and used carefully, but without them you would have never seen the carbon rings and other issues like fire cracking. Now that you can get a great quality picture for $40 off a Teslong and your phone, they should be part of everyone's' cleaning setup.

[Dick284]

While copper fouling is no “lie”, because excessive copper fouling will without doubt contribute to accuracy drop off.

Carbon indeed is a great big pain to get remove, and is far more prevalent than most know….

JB’s and some sort of carrier is the trick, I’ve resorted to Hoppes #9 on a patch wrapped around a used bronze brush, and JB’s, and a lot of elbow grease.

My Teslong borescope definitely tells the story, the video ability of the Teslong is a great tool.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Dean2

I agree with respect to the Bore scope. First one I bought was a great many years ago. It was made by Hawkeye and they were expensive. If I remember right the first one I paid $400 for, more than 45 years ago, and that was a hell of a lot of money in 1980. There were also quite delicate and had to be stored in a hard case and used carefully, but without them you would have never seen the carbon rings and other issues like fire cracking. Now that you can get a great quality picture for $40 off a Teslong and your phone, they should be part of everyone's' cleaning setup.

I was offered a good buck for my Hawkeye after I bought a Teslong, so took it.
The Teslong has the advantage of a longer reach than the Hawkeye but is not nearly as clear.
Cat

[Ackleyman]

How many rounds before cleaning ? And how soon after shooting ? 7mm burns lots of powder lotsa heat. Shot a 7 Rem and 280 AI for years , if i was screwin around with new scope , testing loads , whatever, 30 shots max [over hrs] and its getting cleaned. Never had accuracy issues.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I was offered a good buck for my Hawkeye after I bought a Teslong, so took it.
The Teslong has the advantage of a longer reach than the Hawkeye but is not nearly as clear.
Cat

If you get the calibre specific mirror set for them they are actually better than my hawkeye. With the adjustable light intensity and setting the focus on the correct mirror using the small lock ring, I find it renders a far clearer picture or view.

About 3/4 of the way through the video they explain clearly how to adjust the focus. The difference in detail is quite amazing.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=adjust+foc...%3DkBAWLnJ99jA

Teslong Store
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Teslong Mirrors Set of Rifle Borescope, Only Applies to NTG Barrel Bore Scope, Fit .22 / .243 / .30 / .38 / .40 and More Caliber Barrels

[catnthehat]

Dean my Teslong does not have the solid probe.
Not that it matters, it does a very good job for what I need it to do.
The big thing I found with it is I can send it down down the muzzle right to the chamber with an empty cartridge in there, works great for that.
Cat

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

Dean my Teslong does not have the solid probe.
Not that it matters, it does a very good job for what I need it to do.
The big thing I found with it is I can send it down down the muzzle right to the chamber with an empty cartridge in there, works great for that.
Cat

Mine is the flexible one as well. It still has the adjustment collar and the adjustable light level wheel on it. I would bet your doioes to. If you are missing the lock collar you can get replacements from Teslong or Amazon.

https://teslong.com/collections/parts-and-accessories

[6.5 shooter]

My Teslong came with the locking nut. I think I paid $40 bucks for it best/worst investment I ever made. Best because I can now see the bore, worst because I can now see the bore.

[Bushrat]

Have had a Hawkeye for a long time. Over that time I have tried various carbon cutters for cleaning. None worked very well or very fast or at all.

I use a bronze brush wrapped with a patch soaked with Remington Bore cleaner (which is just oil mixed with a JB type abrasive cleaner) I use that when I can find it, just find it easier to apply a few drops out of squeeze bottle to the patch wrapped brush. If I run out I go to JB's or Iosso.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Have had a Hawkeye for a long time. Over that time I have tried various carbon cutters for cleaning. None worked very well or very fast or at all.

I use a bronze brush wrapped with a patch soaked with Remington Bore cleaner (which is just oil mixed with a JB type abrasive cleaner) I use that when I can find it, just find it easier to apply a few drops out of squeeze bottle to the patch wrapped brush. If I run out I go to JB's or Iosso.

I find using any of the spray on stuff doesn't work well unless it is used in conjunction with a good iosso brush But when it is, it works very well.
Just spraying it in and letting it soak does next to nothing .
Cat

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by Dick284

While copper fouling is no “lie”, because excessive copper fouling will without doubt contribute to accuracy drop off.

Carbon indeed is a great big pain to get remove, and is far more prevalent than most know….

JB’s and some sort of carrier is the trick, I’ve resorted to Hoppes #9 on a patch wrapped around a used bronze brush, and JB’s, and a lot of elbow grease.

My Teslong borescope definitely tells the story, the video ability of the Teslong is a great tool.

I really wasn’t saying it was a lie. Just a bit of a false door. It’s there and can absolutely a problem. But it’s a diversion. Copper eliminating powders have also put a huge dent in copper fouling.

[marxman]

I find that with ordinary gun cleaners with copper removal capability the copper is gone already before you are done with the Carbon. I currently have proshot and wipeout no special copper solvent.