4 fletch vs 3 fletch

[Dubious]

What are you guys running for outdoor 3D shoots like TAC? Just fletched my first 3 arrows with standard blazer 2” veins 4 fletch right hand helical thought it might be fun to get all the guys I shoot with at the range fired up. I’m shooting victory vap gamers .166 should have lots of spin on them.

[Coiloil37]

3 vs. 4 fletch? The only reason to try a 4 fletched arrow is because they look different. If you need more control you can tune better, use a longer vane, increase your FOC or use a real feather like god intended.
Four fletch adds weight, reduces tolerances for clearance although drop away tests have all but eliminated that problem and increases the time and expense to fletch them.
I’ve tried 4 fletch for the looks, never because I needed it but always gravitate back to a 3” shield cut, right helical, natural (unprocessed) wild turkey feather. There’s nothing better you can put on the back of your arrow. They’re lighter, more forgiving, quieter, just as waterproof, last longer and look better then any vane on the market.







Good luck with the four fletch though, they do look different.

[kujoseto]

Those Turkey feathers look amazing

[wlou]

I did some testing with various vanes/feathers a while back, tracking the velocity and drag curves out to 60 yards via a LabRadar chronograph. While definitely not scientific, I did try to minimize variables as much as possible especially the spine and total weight of each bare shaft (I think I sorted through over 2 dozen arrows using a Ram spine tester to match spine as closely as possible).

Long story short, in terms of statistical consistency, vanes are more consistent than feathers. Extreme velocity spread on feathers was approximately 3-4 fps at the shot compared to 1 fps with pretty much every vane. Feathers were lighter and would generate ~4 fps more velocity than vanes, but by 20 yards the velocity would be equal (higher drag on feathers) and past 60 yards the feathers were parachuting and velocity was dropping like a rock. Vanes have a very linear decay of velocity, while the feathers would have a much more parabolic drop. In my setup, I found vanes to be superior for accuracy past 50 yards, and noticeably so when pushing to 70 yards and further.

If you're interested, here's a link to my charted results:
https://imgur.com/hb39CeB

All of the tests were done 3-fletch with a 2-degree right helical. I did some 4-fletch, but didn't chart it since I tested it on a different day. If memory serves me, it basically had a similar linear velocity decay as a 3-fletch vane with a slightly more pronounced drop in velocity past 50 yards (not as pronounced as feathers).

Since you're likely considering longer shots for 3D, a low profile vane along with the micro diameter shaft would definitely help in reducing wind drift.

[Coiloil37]

Originally Posted by wlou

I did some testing with various vanes/feathers a while back, tracking the velocity and drag curves out to 60 yards via a LabRadar chronograph. While definitely not scientific, I did try to minimize variables as much as possible especially the spine and total weight of each bare shaft (I think I sorted through over 2 dozen arrows using a Ram spine tester to match spine as closely as possible).

Long story short, in terms of statistical consistency, vanes are more consistent than feathers. Extreme velocity spread on feathers was approximately 3-4 fps at the shot compared to 1 fps with pretty much every vane. Feathers were lighter and would generate ~4 fps more velocity than vanes, but by 20 yards the velocity would be equal (higher drag on feathers) and past 60 yards the feathers were parachuting and velocity was dropping like a rock. Vanes have a very linear decay of velocity, while the feathers would have a much more parabolic drop. In my setup, I found vanes to be superior for accuracy past 50 yards, and noticeably so when pushing to 70 yards and further.

If you're interested, here's a link to my charted results:
https://imgur.com/hb39CeB

All of the tests were done 3-fletch with a 2-degree right helical. I did some 4-fletch, but didn't chart it since I tested it on a different day. If memory serves me, it basically had a similar linear velocity decay as a 3-fletch vane with a slightly more pronounced drop in velocity past 50 yards (not as pronounced as feathers).

Since you're likely considering longer shots for 3D, a low profile vane along with the micro diameter shaft would definitely help in reducing wind drift.

I’m seriously biased about my fletching choice from having done this so long and having tried nearly everything. I understand this game so well I’ll trust my own observations over almost everything thats presented to me but let’s discuss.

I should also say, I haven’t put a great deal of thought into this yet but off the top of my head.

First, why are you drawing a correlation between retained velocity and accuracy? I’ll be the first to admit I’m steering broadheads so my priorities are different but arrow control leads to accuracy. Velocity is down the list of priorities. To discount feathers on the data you provided doesn’t strike me as linear thinking.

It’s been a long time since I’ve shot vanes but if memory serves, most of the 2” vanes weigh about 3-4 grains. So they might add ~8 to 10 grains of weight over three feathers. To see 3-4 FPS velocity you should be looking at ~20ish grains difference in arrow weights between arrow groups. There’s no way 8-10 grains difference in arrow weight would show a 3-4 FPS velocity variation. So being as I didn’t do the testing I would guess you either pulled harder into the wall, a discrepancy in the chrono, bias or not a large enough data set.

If that part of the velocity testing isn’t dead accurate I’m not sure if the data in the middle or final velocities are accurate either but you could add more details if you wanted. Personally I would have to do the test myself to believe the results.

I have shot 3” fusion vanes and blazers against my 3” feathers at 70 meters and my feathered shafts impact 3-4” higher every time. I could be wrong but I believe drop is an expression of velocity VS time. As my feathered shafts impact higher I suspect they’re covering the distance quicker and being subjected to gravity for a shorter period of time. Again one more reason why I would be suspect of your data.

I would fully expect feathers to shed velocity quicker as a byproduct of their increased drag which leads to their increased control but I can’t wrap my head around why the change would be parabolic. That doesn’t make any sense and one of the reasons why I mentioned I haven’t had time to think about this but IMO it doesn’t make sense and again leads me to mistrust the data but also raises my curiosity. Perhaps you have a hypothesis? My gut says it’s inconsistency in the testing where the mid range velocity testing was wrong or wasn’t enough data and made the velocity drop appear parabolic. I could buy it without suspicion if they started 1-2 FPS faster and ended 2-4 FPS slower but were linear in velocity drop.

I would have to think about it a bit but the effects of tune, FOC and yaw play a factor in what your dancing around as well. Again, I shoot more broadheads then anything else. I’ve seen far to clearly over the decades how feathers lead to increased accuracy over vanes to really care about the difference in physics. To me the most simple acid test would be what are the Olympic guys shooting. From memory they still shoot feathers indoors and mostly vanes outdoors. I suspect that’s because they’re scared of the weather outdoors and we all know how processed feathers respond to wet weather so that makes sense why they shoot plastic outside. Not because it’s better, simply because it’s safer.

Last but certainly not least. No processed feather is worth the glue to stick it on an arrow. If you haven’t shot an unprocessed feather off a wild bird you don’t know what I’m talking about. Those carbons I posted a picture of were refletched back in 2011 or 2012 and have all been through multiple animals and shot 1000’s of times. The fmj’s on the bottom were fletched at the same time but I don’t shoot them nearly as much so I can’t guarantee they’ve been through any animals.

[wlou]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

I’m seriously biased about my fletching choice from having done this so long and having tried nearly everything. I understand this game so well I’ll trust my own observations over almost everything thats presented to me but let’s discuss.

I should also say, I haven’t put a great deal of thought into this yet but off the top of my head.

First, why are you drawing a correlation between retained velocity and accuracy? I’ll be the first to admit I’m steering broadheads so my priorities are different but arrow control leads to accuracy. Velocity is down the list of priorities. To discount feathers on the data you provided doesn’t strike me as linear thinking.

It’s been a long time since I’ve shot vanes but if memory serves, most of the 2” vanes weigh about 3-4 grains. So they might add ~8 to 10 grains of weight over three feathers. To see 3-4 FPS velocity you should be looking at ~20ish grains difference in arrow weights between arrow groups. There’s no way 8-10 grains difference in arrow weight would show a 3-4 FPS velocity variation. So being as I didn’t do the testing I would guess you either pulled harder into the wall, a discrepancy in the chrono, bias or not a large enough data set.

If that part of the velocity testing isn’t dead accurate I’m not sure if the data in the middle or final velocities are accurate either but you could add more details if you wanted. Personally I would have to do the test myself to believe the results.

I have shot 3” fusion vanes and blazers against my 3” feathers at 70 meters and my feathered shafts impact 3-4” higher every time. I could be wrong but I believe drop is an expression of velocity VS time. As my feathered shafts impact higher I suspect they’re covering the distance quicker and being subjected to gravity for a shorter period of time. Again one more reason why I would be suspect of your data.

I would fully expect feathers to shed velocity quicker as a byproduct of their increased drag which leads to their increased control but I can’t wrap my head around why the change would be parabolic. That doesn’t make any sense and one of the reasons why I mentioned I haven’t had time to think about this but IMO it doesn’t make sense and again leads me to mistrust the data but also raises my curiosity. Perhaps you have a hypothesis? My gut says it’s inconsistency in the testing where the mid range velocity testing was wrong or wasn’t enough data and made the velocity drop appear parabolic. I could buy it without suspicion if they started 1-2 FPS faster and ended 2-4 FPS slower but were linear in velocity drop.

I would have to think about it a bit but the effects of tune, FOC and yaw play a factor in what your dancing around as well. Again, I shoot more broadheads then anything else. I’ve seen far to clearly over the decades how feathers lead to increased accuracy over vanes to really care about the difference in physics. To me the most simple acid test would be what are the Olympic guys shooting. From memory they still shoot feathers indoors and mostly vanes outdoors. I suspect that’s because they’re scared of the weather outdoors and we all know how processed feathers respond to wet weather so that makes sense why they shoot plastic outside. Not because it’s better, simply because it’s safer.

Last but certainly not least. No processed feather is worth the glue to stick it on an arrow. If you haven’t shot an unprocessed feather off a wild bird you don’t know what I’m talking about. Those carbons I posted a picture of were refletched back in 2011 or 2012 and have all been through multiple animals and shot 1000’s of times. The fmj’s on the bottom were fletched at the same time but I don’t shoot them nearly as much so I can’t guarantee they’ve been through any animals.

That's fine and you're entitled to your opinions based off of your experiences. I'm presenting information that I found doing testing out of curiosity. It's not meant to draw a correlation between velocity and accuracy; without a mechanical shooter in a closed environment, I wouldn't draw any conclusions either so any references to accuracy are purely anecdotal.

The OP inquired about 4-fletch vanes for 3D shoots and I thought to present information I found via testing with empirical measurements. I don't believe in a one-size fits all solution for everything, and 3D shoots certainly have different situations and variables to consider compared to a hunting situation.

I'm pretty sure I stated that while it shouldn't be taken as scientific, I did do my best to try to minimize variables to make things as relevant as possible.
The data presented is the aggregate average of multiple shots (probably between 10-12 shots) with clean tracking. The LabRadar saves each shot as a spreadsheet so I went through each individual shot and discarded shots that had incomplete or poor tracking (poor signal-to-noise ratio - which is provided in the spreadsheet). It actually tracks out to 80 yards, but since the data set was relatively small at that range, I opted to only plot out to 60 yards for sake of more data points.

Blazers are advertised to be 6.0 grains per vane. I weighed out a couple hundred on an AnD Fx120i scale and they were closer to 6.2 grains (some of them up to 6.5). The difference in weight would be about 15 grains extra for vanes over feathers.

With regards to biases, I purchased all of the feathers and vanes out of my own pocket and testing was done for my curiosity. At the time of testing, I was actually using feathers and thought to test vanes out of curiosity (so arguably, my bow was tuned for feathers and not vanes). As you stated, your acid test is what Olympic shooters use; my curiosity was sparked due to every professional compound 3D shooter using vanes.

I use the LabRadar data along with The Archery Program to generate my sight tapes. The Archery Program has its own drag model and will generate a spreadsheet with velocity at various distances. I like to verify the velocity of The Archery Program's model to the velocity recorded on the LabRadar; theoretical velocity (The Archery Program drag model) at all ranges are within 1 fps at all ranges recorded. I've made sight tapes for six other shooters this way on over 10 different bow setups and all have said the tapes were spot on at all ranges. To me, this implies the drag model on The Archery Program is accurate provided accurate information is supplied. Using their model, switching the fletching from vanes to feathers will also show a more parabolic (less linear) drop in velocity, all things equal.

The data presented is just that: data. Connect your own dots as you please, and if you don't find value in it, that's fine as well.

[Dubious]

Here are the first 6 I’ve done now. I had some of the longer skinny veins as mentioned above so I figured I would give them a try. With the intent to be shooting 3D foam outside I know some of these courses throw some red herring long shots out there like the across the pond 130yard moose at one of the TACs in the us. what distance would you guys think is optimal to test these at? Wlou are you using archers advantage? I have an account there and made one site tape I know I must have done something wrong I figure I was out a bit my 100m shots I had to dial 105m to be accurate. I also have LabRadar and the bow trigger I’ll set it up next time I go shoot and get some data.

[wlou]

Originally Posted by Dubious

Here are the first 6 I’ve done now. I had some of the longer skinny veins as mentioned above so I figured I would give them a try. With the intent to be shooting 3D foam outside I know some of these courses throw some red herring long shots out there like the across the pond 130yard moose at one of the TACs in the us. what distance would you guys think is optimal to test these at? Wlou are you using archers advantage? I have an account there and made one site tape I know I must have done something wrong I figure I was out a bit my 100m shots I had to dial 105m to be accurate. I also have LabRadar and the bow trigger I’ll set it up next time I go shoot and get some data.

I haven't tried Archer's Advantage with the LabRadar data before, but I believe it allows for calibration of a sight tape by inputting velocity at 2 different ranges, which is how I use The Archery Program (TAP). With TAP, I would typically use 20 yards for the near mark and 60-70 yards for the far mark - generally, the further your second mark is to your max range, the more accurate it will be. I have made a tape for a friend with limited time and max range, so we went out to 50 yards and the tape produced was, in his words, "more accurate than I can hold at 80 yards". Measuring as accurately as possible the other inputs, especially peep-to-pin and peep-to-arrow, is essential to producing an accurate sight tape. I'm not sure about Archer's Advantage, but ensure that your printer is also set to "print actual size" and not "fit to page" or scale, otherwise you can get some distortion that's really noticeable at range.

I've been out of the archery game for a while, but still have TAP on my computer and would be happy to help with a sight tape if you like - it might be interesting to compare the results from TAP and AA.

[Dubious]

Wlou, that would be fun. Ill get out and shoot these arrows this week and get the data pm me the info you need and I’ll send it all to you. we can post the results for everyone to interpret I’ll do a AA tape as well. I’ll shoot 3 fletch “factory” and the 2 types of 4 fletch I’ve made as well.

[Lefty-Canuck]

I have found 4 is better than three for stabilizing fixed blade heads.

LC

[Dubious]

well its been an interesting range day. I made it to the range right after it opened and had the place to my self on a nice crisp snow dusted morning. I fired 12 shots per arrow type collected the data on Labradar and have just now begun to digest it. I fired my shots in the order of 3 fletch standard 2" blazer, 4 fletch helical 2" blazer https://shop.bohning.com/blazer-vane/ and lastly 4 fletch helical 3" ICE veins https://shop.bohning.com/ice-vane/ .

all shots where at at 30 m data recorded by labradar. 12 shot strings for each arrow type averages as follows.

3 vein blazer avr 284 ES 6 SD 2
4 vein blazer avr 282 ES 4 SD 1.2
4 vein ice. avr 282 ES 7 SD 2.1

The es variance could be more me shooting and not being tight to the backwall on every shot im not a pro. Things I noticed right away was the 4 fletch ice veins consistently shot tighter groups than the other 2 types. as for drag please see the charts below for an arrow break down I picked 1 shot from each set that was the closest starting speed across all 3 to compare against.

3 fletch blazer

Time (s) Vel (fps) Dist (m)
0.000000 283.25 0.00
0.141021 276.80 11.95
0.145021 276.55 12.29
0.149021 274.89 12.63
0.153021 278.03 12.97
0.157021 276.47 13.30
0.161021 277.41 13.64
0.165021 276.79 13.98
0.169021 276.79 14.32
0.173021 276.45 14.65
0.177021 276.00 14.99
0.181021 275.92 15.33
0.185021 275.59 15.66
0.189021 275.92 16.00
0.193021 275.19 16.33
0.197021 275.03 16.67
0.201021 275.13 17.01
0.205021 275.05 17.34
0.209021 274.57 17.68
0.213021 274.67 18.01
0.217021 274.42 18.35
0.221021 273.50 18.68
0.225021 275.08 19.01
0.229021 272.35 19.35
0.233021 273.82 19.68
0.237021 272.88 20.01
0.241021 272.59 20.35
0.245021 273.23 20.68
0.249021 272.08 21.01
0.253021 273.23 21.34
0.257021 271.54 21.68
0.261021 274.83 22.01
0.265021 271.65 22.34
0.269021 272.44 22.67
0.273021 271.12 23.01
0.277021 271.48 23.34
0.281021 271.91 23.67
0.285021 270.91 24.00
0.289021 271.71 24.33
0.293021 270.66 24.66
0.297021 271.67 24.99
0.301021 270.67 25.32
0.305021 270.48 25.65
0.309021 270.29 25.98
0.313021 270.11 26.31
0.317021 270.11 26.64
0.321021 269.69 26.97
0.325021 270.06 27.30
0.329021 269.15 27.63
0.333021 269.81 27.95
0.337021 269.32 28.28
0.341021 269.36 28.61
0.345021 269.44 28.94
0.349021 269.10 29.27

4 fletch blazer

Time (s) Vel (fps) Dist (m)
0.000000 283.19 0.00
0.141021 278.43 11.92
0.145021 275.10 12.25
0.149021 275.27 12.59
0.153021 275.85 12.93
0.157021 274.84 13.26
0.161021 275.50 13.60
0.165021 274.71 13.93
0.169021 275.43 14.27
0.173021 275.20 14.60
0.177021 274.17 14.94
0.181021 273.97 15.27
0.185021 274.38 15.61
0.189021 273.45 15.94
0.193021 273.53 16.27
0.197021 273.65 16.61
0.201021 273.61 16.94
0.205021 273.16 17.27
0.209021 273.29 17.61
0.213021 273.16 17.94
0.217021 272.29 18.27
0.221021 272.53 18.61
0.225021 272.34 18.94
0.229021 272.48 19.27
0.233021 271.80 19.60
0.237021 270.74 19.93
0.241021 270.70 20.26
0.245021 272.43 20.59
0.249021 269.99 20.92
0.253021 270.29 21.25
0.257021 270.06 21.58
0.261021 273.27 21.91
0.265021 269.14 22.24
0.269021 271.12 22.57
0.273021 270.08 22.90
0.277021 269.62 23.23
0.281021 270.33 23.56
0.285021 269.64 23.89
0.289021 268.91 24.22
0.293021 270.03 24.55
0.297021 269.90 24.88
0.301021 268.90 25.21
0.305021 268.92 25.53
0.309021 268.76 25.86
0.313021 268.24 26.19
0.317021 268.54 26.52
0.321021 268.47 26.84
0.325021 267.70 27.17
0.329021 268.09 27.50
0.333021 267.87 27.82
0.337021 267.37 28.15
0.341021 267.57 28.48
0.345021 267.44 28.80
0.349021 266.69 29.13

4 fletch ice

Time (s) Vel (fps) Dist (m)
0.000000 283.49 0.00
0.141021 277.39 11.94
0.145021 278.34 12.27
0.149021 273.11 12.61
0.153021 273.76 12.94
0.157021 276.60 13.28
0.161021 274.91 13.62
0.165021 276.20 13.95
0.169021 274.53 14.29
0.173021 275.32 14.62
0.177021 275.04 14.96
0.181021 274.11 15.29
0.185021 274.23 15.63
0.189021 274.53 15.96
0.193021 273.86 16.30
0.197021 273.68 16.63
0.201021 273.74 16.96
0.205021 273.08 17.30
0.209021 273.83 17.63
0.213021 272.94 17.96
0.217021 272.69 18.30
0.221021 273.13 18.63
0.225021 272.55 18.96
0.229021 273.03 19.29
0.233021 272.29 19.63
0.237021 271.22 19.96
0.241021 271.25 20.29
0.245021 269.82 20.62
0.249021 271.02 20.95
0.253021 271.27 21.28
0.257021 271.67 21.61
0.261021 269.97 21.94
0.265021 270.99 22.27
0.269021 270.63 22.60
0.273021 271.15 22.93
0.277021 270.90 23.26
0.281021 270.17 23.59
0.285021 270.31 23.92
0.289021 269.90 24.25
0.293021 269.86 24.58
0.297021 270.13 24.91
0.301021 269.87 25.24
0.305021 270.21 25.57
0.309021 269.59 25.89
0.313021 268.64 26.22
0.317021 268.89 26.55
0.321021 269.17 26.88
0.325021 268.19 27.21
0.329021 268.42 27.53
0.333021 268.91 27.86
0.337021 267.55 28.19
0.341021 268.37 28.51
0.345021 268.10 28.84
0.349021 267.65 29.17

as you can see the velocity reduction was greatest on the 4 fletch arrows with a difference of 2.41 fps with the 4 fletch blazer and 1.45 fps on the 4 fletch ice. this will make up more of a difference over longer ranges but shooting a 1.5" consistent group at 30 m vs 2-5" varying group i'm going to not worry about that speed and adjust my pins accordingly. i'm hoping to get out to the other range so I can stretch my shots out to 100m and see what happens right now i'm pretty happy with my first arrow builds i've learned a lot even constructing a draw board in my basement and a paper tuning stand thanks everyone for the help with this one.