Can Canada Remain Sovereign?

[TripleTTT]

With all the smoke and mirrors happening in Ottawa these days; what about the real issues?
Putin is investing heavily on troop and base build up in Arctic.
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/...ticle16425755/
Harper could not get heavy icebreakers built, and why don't we have more military presence in the Arctic?

Just wondering if Russia is planning to build bases on undefended Canadian soil, (Like they did to Japan) in order to secure the Inside Passage as a Russian property...

[jkav]

By the Law of the Sea, the Inside Passage is very likely to be deemed international waters, at least for navigational purposes - even if the soil on either side of it is Canadian. Things like fishing rights are more murky.

But you're absolutely correct that Canada needs to have a much greater presence up there - be it military installations and exercises, national parks, resource extraction, scientific study, or all of the above - to protect the sovereignty of our northern lands.

[45/70/500]

Originally Posted by jkav

By the Law of the Sea, the Inside Passage is very likely to be deemed international waters, at least for navigational purposes - even if the soil on either side of it is Canadian. Things like fishing rights are more murky.

But you're absolutely correct that Canada needs to have a much greater presence up there - be it military installations and exercises, national parks, resource extraction, scientific study, or all of the above - to protect the sovereignty of our northern lands.

could we send winter coats ??

[airbornedeerhunter]

We don't have a permanent arctic military presence because it would cost billions to put in place. We don't a large enough military as it is and to relocate a brigade or stand up a new one to be permanently posted to the arctic is impossible. The fact that you can't knit soldiers and equipment aside, there are no arctic bases and no communities up north that could support a base, no jobs for spouses, no schools for kids, infrastructure etc etc etc. If you were to post an existing Infantry unit or an entire Brigade to ( insert random arctic community here) the release section on base would be lined up out the door with guys putting in their 30 day. One of the roles of the Canadian Airborne Regiment was rapid air interdiction operations into the arctic by parachute but the Liberals decided to disband it in 95!

[Steven Noel]

Originally Posted by airbornedeerhunter

We don't have a permanent arctic military presence because it would cost billions to put in place. We don't a large enough military as it is and to relocate a brigade or stand up a new one to be permanently posted to the arctic is impossible. The fact that you can't knit soldiers and equipment aside, there are no arctic bases and no communities up north that could support a base, no jobs for spouses, no schools for kids, infrastructure etc etc etc. If you were to post an existing Infantry unit or an entire Brigade to ( insert random arctic community here) the release section on base would be lined up out the door with guys putting in their 30 day. One of the roles of the Canadian Airborne Regiment was rapid air interdiction operations into the arctic by parachute but the Liberals decided to disband it in 95!

Could you not do it like an internal tour? 6 or 9 month arctic rotations?

[recce43]

Originally Posted by Steven Noel

Could you not do it like an internal tour? 6 or 9 month arctic rotations?

still cost billions you have to build a base then supply it . have runways .
fuel food support troops for the combat troops .

[airbornedeerhunter]

Originally Posted by Steven Noel

Could you not do it like an internal tour? 6 or 9 month arctic rotations?

What would we be doing aside from a presence? Pretty much turn into Jack Nicholson from The Shining by tours end. Not much to look forward to spending 6-9 months every two years in arctic. Like my armoured friend said, would still cost billions to facilitate.

[PartTimeHunter]

Use it or lose it - no?

[HalfBreed]

Originally Posted by PartTimeHunter

Use it or lose it - no?

Conscription is the only way, Conscription does not work.

[TripleTTT]

I agree with all of the proposed solutions. However, political rhetoric aside, we can protest all we want to the U.N. if Putin builds bases on current Canadian soil.
All the protesting that Japan has done in losing the Kuril Islands to Russia have fallen on deaf ears.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/russia-...wart-1.3297267
Just trying to keep people informed, 'cause it seems ISIS/L refugees have been distracting public awareness.

[Grizzly Adams]

why don't we have more military presence in the Arctic?


Too damned expensive in the short run. In the long run, we may regret not spending the money it would require. Where are those damned fighters the politicians keep arguing about ? Justin, I'm sure believes the world is a rose garden. Not So.

Grizz

[JimPS]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

why don't we have more military presence in the Arctic?


Too damned expensive in the short run. In the long run, we may regret not spending the money it would require. Where are those damned fighters the politicians keep arguing about ? Justin, I'm sure believes the world is a rose garden. Not So.

Grizz

I thought the F35 was unsuitable for the type of operations we require in the arctic.

[Grizzly Adams]

Originally Posted by HalfBreed

Conscription is the only way, Conscription does not work.

Can't see it happening, but might make Men of some who otherwise never will be, like Justine.

Grizz

[HalfBreed]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams

Can't see it happening, but might make Men of some who otherwise never will be, like Justine.

Grizz

open the program to those without my skin tone? That would require a heavy arming of the public at the publics expense though.

[TBD]

Originally Posted by airbornedeerhunter

We don't have a permanent arctic military presence because it would cost billions to put in place. We don't a large enough military as it is and to relocate a brigade or stand up a new one to be permanently posted to the arctic is impossible. The fact that you can't knit soldiers and equipment aside, there are no arctic bases and no communities up north that could support a base, no jobs for spouses, no schools for kids, infrastructure etc etc etc. If you were to post an existing Infantry unit or an entire Brigade to ( insert random arctic community here) the release section on base would be lined up out the door with guys putting in their 30 day. One of the roles of the Canadian Airborne Regiment was rapid air interdiction operations into the arctic by parachute but the Liberals decided to disband it in 95!

Wasn't it Justin - who said that the scientists will figure out whose continental shelf extends where (this is in regards to Russia's claim to half our Arctic territories) ....

Going to be some interesting times ahead, especially if Putin decides to annex half the arctic for himself.

This is before some UN body as we speak, and who are we going to be able to rely on militarily ?

We've just witnessed with the Ukraine, O'bama and other NATO allies (Britian - France) are perfectly happy to sit on their hands as the Russians literally destroyed Western Ukraine.

TBD

PS ... Interesting times ahead boys - interesting times ...

... Do you feel safe with Justin in charge ?

[CNP]

Originally Posted by JimPS

I thought the F35 was unsuitable for the type of operations we require in the arctic.

Propaganda machine at work again. https://www.f35.com/media/videos-det...e-f-35s-range/

[ak-71]

Originally Posted by TBD

Wasn't it Justin - who said that the scientists will figure out whose continental shelf extends where (this is in regards to Russia's claim to half our Arctic territories) ....

Going to be some interesting times ahead, especially if Putin decides to annex half the arctic for himself.

This is before some UN body as we speak, and who are we going to be able to rely on militarily ?

We've just witnessed with the Ukraine, O'bama and other NATO allies (Britian - France) are perfectly happy to sit on their hands as the Russians literally destroyed Western Ukraine.

TBD

PS ... Interesting times ahead boys - interesting times ...

... Do you feel safe with Justin in charge ?

Western Ukraine can be blamed on global warming just as easy as on Putin. No evidence, but everyone knows both are really, really bad. If Russia was destroying anything there it would be way more visible than their attempts to help other to destroy ISIS in Syria due to a much smaller area and much higher number of troops claimed to be involved.

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by airbornedeerhunter

We don't have a permanent arctic military presence because it would cost billions to put in place. We don't a large enough military as it is and to relocate a brigade or stand up a new one to be permanently posted to the arctic is impossible. The fact that you can't knit soldiers and equipment aside, there are no arctic bases and no communities up north that could support a base, no jobs for spouses, no schools for kids, infrastructure etc etc etc. If you were to post an existing Infantry unit or an entire Brigade to ( insert random arctic community here) the release section on base would be lined up out the door with guys putting in their 30 day. One of the roles of the Canadian Airborne Regiment was rapid air interdiction operations into the arctic by parachute but the Liberals decided to disband it in 95!

You've offered this argument before ABDH, but I'm not sure I buy it. What was in Cold Lake before the base was built there? I'm sure some folks said "There's nothing there. What is my wife going to do?" Fact is there are plenty of people including federal and territorial government workers living north of 60. If employees of various federal departments live permanently in the North, why should employees of the department of National Defence be exempt? Who wanted to live in Ft. Mac in 1960, with a population of only 1,100? But there was a reason to go later and people went. I agree with you that it will cost a huge outlay in cash, and that's probably the drawback.

[airbornedeerhunter]

Originally Posted by Okotokian

You've offered this argument before ABDH, but I'm not sure I buy it. What was in Cold Lake before the base was built there? I'm sure some folks said "There's nothing there. What is my wife going to do?" Fact is there are plenty of people including federal and territorial government workers living north of 60. If employees of various federal departments live permanently in the North, why should employees of the department of National Defence be exempt? Who wanted to live in Ft. Mac in 1960, with a population of only 1,100? But there was a reason to go later and people went. I agree with you that it will cost a huge outlay in cash, and that's probably the drawback.

Yes, this was beat to death a few months ago. Aside from the astronomical financial cost which would likely be in the billions, simple fact is that we do not have a sizeable enough force to have a brigade or even a battalion for that matter, in the arctic permanently. And yes, if they were to move forward with it people would leave the CAF in droves from whatever unit was being moved. Don't believe me? Look at what happened to 2 PPCLI when they closed CFB Winnipeg and moved the Bn to Shilo, guys left in such numbers that the Bn was crippled for a few years. Many more moved but their families remained behind in the Peg and they commuted until they hit their 20 or 25 or 30 years whichever was on their individual retirement horizons and they then got out. Aside from the massive problem of explaining to the members what their wives would do for employment in the North, again as I stated before, where is everyone going to live? Are they going to build hundreds of modern homes up there that we could purchase or would they build hundreds of PMQ's and expect guys who have been homeowners for years and in many cases are mortgage free to move north and begin paying rent in military housing? What local businesses and amenities are there to support? Where the Crappy Tire, Walmart, grocery stores and other businesses? The problems with this plan are endless. What about the single guys? What would they do? Not many bars, clubs etc to go out and meet some ladies and get their oil changed every weekend eh? They'd have the hairiest palms in Canada!!! It will never happen! Guys almost have a mental breakdown when they get posted from Edmonton to Gagetown. Loss of pay and allowances, loss of deployment opportunities, lack of work for spouses, high cost of living, high taxes etc. but at least you can go to a movie!

[mark-edmonton]

Abdh! You are very correct, but people that have not served may not see the points you are making because it has never been a reality for them! I pulled the pin for that exact reason! I was a divorced father and was not willing to be posted away from my son! But I had to do a 6 month release as they would not allow a 30 day

[The Elkster]

Originally Posted by airbornedeerhunter

Yes, this was beat to death a few months ago. Aside from the astronomical financial cost which would likely be in the billions, simple fact is that we do not have a sizeable enough force to have a brigade or even a battalion for that matter, in the arctic permanently. And yes, if they were to move forward with it people would leave the CAF in droves from whatever unit was being moved. Don't believe me? Look at what happened to 2 PPCLI when they closed CFB Winnipeg and moved the Bn to Shilo, guys left in such numbers that the Bn was crippled for a few years. Many more moved but their families remained behind in the Peg and they commuted until they hit their 20 or 25 or 30 years whichever was on their individual retirement horizons and they then got out. Aside from the massive problem of explaining to the members what their wives would do for employment in the North, again as I stated before, where is everyone going to live? Are they going to build hundreds of modern homes up there that we could purchase or would they build hundreds of PMQ's and expect guys who have been homeowners for years and in many cases are mortgage free to move north and begin paying rent in military housing? What local businesses and amenities are there to support? Where the Crappy Tire, Walmart, grocery stores and other businesses? The problems with this plan are endless. What about the single guys? What would they do? Not many bars, clubs etc to go out and meet some ladies and get their oil changed every weekend eh? They'd have the hairiest palms in Canada!!! It will never happen! Guys almost have a mental breakdown when they get posted from Edmonton to Gagetown. Loss of pay and allowances, loss of deployment opportunities, lack of work for spouses, high cost of living, high taxes etc. but at least you can go to a movie!

Sounds like the same argument a lot of unions make...good/bad/reality? Looks like everyone regardless of selflessness to country has a limit eh. Interesting.

[airbornedeerhunter]

Originally Posted by mark-edmonton

Abdh! You are very correct, but people that have not served may not see the points you are making because it has never been a reality for them! I pulled the pin for that exact reason! I was a divorced father and was not willing to be posted away from my son! But I had to do a 6 month release as they would not allow a 30 day

Another excellent point. I know more than one guy who was in your situation, postings become impossible because of marital breakdown and inability to maintain a relationship with kids should you get posted. Another one is guys who have kids with special needs/major medical issues who are on posting restrictions because the child cannot get the same level of care if they were posted out of the area they are currently in. Too many Canadians think the CAF is made up of single twenty-something's who are warehoused on bases across the country, they do not consider the human dynamic to military service.

[CNP]

There are no roads connecting the remote and sparsely populated areas in the North. Supply chain is by air. And the purpose of a "base" at __________(desired location) would be to _____________ (fill in the blank with some thoughtful prose). A "base" means different things to different people, even military members. A base can be a port, an airfield, a garrison.........to you who are proposing a "base", knowing that you cannot drive off the base to anywhere.................what is it you are thinking.....................just a mystical presence? It makes some sense to create a seaport and operate/maintain/defend it but a mechanized army brigade is not going to operate in the arctic (there will not be any invading mechanized army). The air force uses Iqaluit, Inuvik,Yellowknife and Rankin Inlet as a "forward operating bases". Yellowknife has a permanent "base". All of these locations can hangar CF-18s and accommodate support staff. Alert is an existing permanent "base". Any thought to building permanent "bases" in the arctic has to consider co-locating a seaport with an airfield with minimal force protection. You can't patrol the arctic with foot soldiers and mechanized units..................you do it with ships and planes.

[southernman]

sum good points, made,
I think that a small force, could be deployed in Yellowknife, there will be sum jobs, recreation, and dining/pub for family. And its a very nice place in the summer, long winter, but I liked it there, good people, and with 25000 for population no so bad.
Having spent over a year Biased at Cambridge bay NWS, working for Atco Frontec for the Military, I just don't see the point, much better to have a rapid reaction force, a viable and ready to deploy, anywhere across the artic, they might be needed, its a big place, any purpose built base, would likely be in the wrong place.

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by The Elkster

Sounds like the same argument a lot of unions make...good/bad/reality? Looks like everyone regardless of selflessness to country has a limit eh. Interesting.

Ah yes, selflessness to country. Pretty easy to say when you're not the one who has to be so selfless.

[TripleTTT]

Originally Posted by Matt L.

Ah yes, selflessness to country. Pretty easy to say when you're not the one who has to be so selfless.

Sign of our times. My father fought for our country... Mind you, he was 18 when he volunteered to fight Nazis. No family to provide for. "A big adventure", as my father in law would say.

Here's a thought. With unemployment so high, why doesn't CF open recruitment up. (note sarcasm)

Could CF not have one month in and 2 wks off? Or is this too short for a tour?

I know nothing... My name is John Snow.

[Matt L.]

Originally Posted by TripleTTT

Sign of our times. My father fought for our country... Mind you, he was 18 when he volunteered to fight Nazis. No family to provide for. "A big adventure", as my father in law would say.

Here's a thought. With unemployment so high, why doesn't CF open recruitment up. (note sarcasm)

Could CF not have one month in and 2 wks off? Or is this too short for a tour?

I know nothing... My name is John Snow.

Joining the army to go overseas and fight is very different than going to the middle of nowhere to stare at pack ice wouldn't you say?

[trooper]

So if Putin is going to build a mil base in the arctic, I think he would have the same problems manning that base that Airbornedeerhunter mentioned? Or is the Russian soldier so much better than ours are?

[45-70sapper]

Originally Posted by trooper

So if Putin is going to build a mil base in the arctic, I think he would have the same problems manning that base that Airbornedeerhunter mentioned? Or is the Russian soldier so much better than ours are?

It's all about the money. Funny how people expect so much from the military when something comes into the spot light but don't care when it's not.

[slickwilly]

The obvious solution is to send scientists up and build research centers. I know for a fact environmental researchers are chomping at the bit to get up into the Arctic.
Those bases can fly the flag, exercise a little dominion, get some valuable data, and probably spearhead all kinds of projects in the area, like establishing a decent port, preparing for the inevitable toxic spill that occurs when shipping gets going full bore through there, find a way to get spilled oil out of the ice...