New brass sizing

[100zero]

I'm wondering who sizes their new brass?
I looked at other forum and lots of guys are sizing their new brass. I found some new 300 brass a while back and just loaded it out of of the box with no problems. Thoughts?

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by 100zero

I'm wondering who sizes their new brass?
I looked at other forum and lots of guys are sizing their new brass. I found some new 300 brass a while back and just loaded it out of of the box with no problems. Thoughts?

I used to just uniform the necks on mine then fire form them in my match rifles .
Cat

[rottie]

I do as well. That and check lenghth for uniformity, sometimes end up lightly trimming them to be of consistant length

[Dick284]

Bump em through your die to true up the necks, chamfer/deburr, prime, load, shoot.
Virgin brass is already minimum dimension, the necks have tendancy to be fairly beat up.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Dick284

Bump em through your die to true up the necks, chamfer/deburr, prime, load, shoot.
Virgin brass is already minimum dimension, the necks have tendancy to be fairly beat up.

That is exactly what I do with new brass.

[100zero]

Is bumping only re shaping the neck? I only have a FL die. So would I only just go past the shoulders?

[bdub]

Originally Posted by 100zero

Is bumping only re shaping the neck? I only have a FL die. So would I only just go past the shoulders?

Just run them thru like you are full length resizing. The should already be under dimension. It will take all the dents etc out of the necks. Trim them a hair and load.

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by Dick284

Bump em through your die to true up the necks, chamfer/deburr, prime, load, shoot.
Virgin brass is already minimum dimension, the necks have tendancy to be fairly beat up.

X2

Set your full length die back about the thickness of a nickel from the shell holder and you will only neck size your brass ( full instructions are in the old Speer reloading manual with the bullet going through the air in multi color).
Your set up may vary but if you candle your brass you will soon figure out when the die no longer touches the shoulder of the brass and it will reform the neck back to the correct dimensions.

[kman300]

New brass gets shot as is from the box/bag and then properly sized and prepped after being shot once.

[Smokinyotes]

The last lapua brass I bought was overly tight when I went to seat the bullets. I will be neck sizing all new brass from now on.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

The last lapua brass I bought was overly tight when I went to seat the bullets. I will be neck sizing all new brass from now on.

If you are loading for hunting you should full length resize your brass imo. You want each and every round to chamber no problem 100% of the time. Loading for accuracy is another matter.

[Pathfinder76]

Never, never FL size new brass (and be careful not to do it with once fired brass either) You can create headspace issues, cause premature case head seperation etc. if they need it, run the necks over the expander ball with new brass and carefully miss the shoulder with most once and twice fired stuff.

[260 Rem]

Chuck, will you explain how the headspace is created? I have never heard of that happening or any theories of how it could occur unless the either the sizer die or chamber are cut outside Saami parameters.

[Homesteader]

It explains it pretty well in just about every reloading book out there. Once fired the brass will expand to the chamber fired in. Alot of guns, production, or custom will be slightly larger then minimum spec, too tight will cause feeding problems. If you size back to minimum spec, then the brass will have to expand again hence a little extra headspace. This causes the brass to be overworked after several times, and shortens it life quicker then neck sizing only. Some guns require minimum spec most bolts don't.

Let us know if you know something other then what I do, or I suspect same as what Chuck is referring too. We're always willing to learn.

[260 Rem]

Post #12 advises that FL sizing new/1X Fires brass creates headspace issues...I was wondering how that occurs. New brass is saami spec ... and if the headspace is on the generous side, it gets reduced to fit the chamber on the first firing. FL sizing sets it back "every" time, not just on the first firing. Yes, repeated firings work harden, but I suspect overbore heat and pressure shorten brass life a lot quicker than bumping the shoulder back each time. I have over 30 reloads on some of my brass without annealing.
I fire form for a 6 Dasher (create a false shoulder for the first firing), which blows the shoulder forward close to 1/10". After the fireforming is done, I FL size subsequent reloads ... lots of them. Never have issues.
I am not aware of any headspace issues created by FL sizing new or 1X Fired brass?

[Pathfinder76]

This is very easy to have happen. It is not rocket science nor is it confusing. Brass manufacturers understand SAAMI specs. They build brass to fit in your chamber. Then along comes Joe Handloader who thinks he knows more. His shiny new brass must need to be fixed with his shiny new die. So he screws in the die as per manufacturers instructions and pushes the shoulder back ( on brass that already fits!). Then he does it again with once fired brass that still isn't seeing the end of the chamber and guaranteed you are starting to create a thin spot ahead of the case head. And then he teaches his friends the same trick!

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Post #12 advises that FL sizing new/1X Fires brass creates headspace issues...I was wondering how that occurs. New brass is saami spec ... and if the headspace is on the generous side, it gets reduced to fit the chamber on the first firing. FL sizing sets it back "every" time, not just on the first firing. Yes, repeated firings work harden, but I suspect overbore heat and pressure shorten brass life a lot quicker than bumping the shoulder back each time. I have over 30 reloads on some of my brass without annealing.
I fire form for a 6 Dasher (create a false shoulder for the first firing), which blows the shoulder forward close to 1/10". After the fireforming is done, I FL size subsequent reloads ... lots of them. Never have issues.
I am not aware of any headspace issues created by FL sizing new or 1X Fired brass?

Your example of the 6 Dasher has absolutely nothing to do with FL sizing virgin cases.

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Homesteader

It explains it pretty well in just about every reloading book out there. Once fired the brass will expand to the chamber fired in. Alot of guns, production, or custom will be slightly larger then minimum spec, too tight will cause feeding problems. If you size back to minimum spec, then the brass will have to expand again hence a little extra headspace. This causes the brass to be overworked after several times, and shortens it life quicker then neck sizing only. Some guns require minimum spec most bolts don't.

Let us know if you know something other then what I do, or I suspect same as what Chuck is referring too. We're always willing to learn.

For many years I loaded new Remington 7mm08 brass with a 110 Speer TNT or 120 BT right out of the bag and fire-formed the brass in my 700 Varmint. When I replaced the original 22-250 barrel with a Rem 7mm08, factory barrel, I had the gunsmith tighten up the Saami headspace by about 0.001". By doing this I could Neck Size the brass and use it in all of the 7mm08's that I loaded for. The main reason I neck sized was to gain the extra case capacity over FL sizing. I did use a Lee Collet neck sizer so the necks were not overworked as much as they would have been with a standard die. I had never even heard of a bushing die which gained favor over the standard dies as they reduced the amount that the necks were worked.

A few years ago when I discovered that you had to pay closer attention to case prep if you wanted to shoot smaller groups like the competitive shooters I decided to FL size, trim the necks, and de-bur the case mouths. I could really see no difference in accuracy as the 110 TNT's still shot 0.25" groups and the 120's did about 1/3" or better. As virtually all brass has been to manufactured minimum Saami specs it has to be fireformed to fit chambers that have been cut to Saami Maximum. Die makers have traditionally kind of split the difference and tightened up the necks in order to accommodate all neck thicknesses. The resulting overworking of the brass is what led to neck sizing and the use of bushings to minimize the working of the brass. So what Chuck says and you are doing is correct according to the way things have been done traditionally. However FL sizing of new brass is very unlikely to create HS problems but standard dies will likely work the necks more than necessary so running the expander button through is likely all that is required.
The best way to get the HS set correctly when using a FL or bump die is to use the Hornady Cartridge headspace Gauge, or similar device, with the proper bushing for the cartridge.
In the last few years manufacturers have began to tighten up their tolerances due to the trend away from NS in favor of "Bumping the Shoulder". In fact if all brass had been manufactured to Saami maximum, all chambers cut to Saami minimum and all dies made like the bump dies none of the above would have been necessary. If you check Saami drawings you will find that there is only 0.0010" tolerance between brass and chambers made to these specs. This trend has led to some confusion as some new brass won't fit in factory chambers and some dies will not size it down enough to fit.

While the following post by 260 Rem may seem to be totally contrary to what you and Chuck are saying he is also correct. He recognizes that heat and pressure shorten brass life quicker than bumping the shoulder by FL sizing. What he perhaps doesn't realize is that bumping the shoulder on a brass fired in a Saami chamber, with standard FL dies, is not like bumping the shoulder with the FL Custom die in his custom 6 Dasher chamber.

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Post #12 advises that FL sizing new/1X Fires brass creates headspace issues...I was wondering how that occurs. New brass is saami spec ... and if the headspace is on the generous side, it gets reduced to fit the chamber on the first firing. FL sizing sets it back "every" time, not just on the first firing. Yes, repeated firings work harden, but I suspect overbore heat and pressure shorten brass life a lot quicker than bumping the shoulder back each time. I have over 30 reloads on some of my brass without annealing.
I fire form for a 6 Dasher (create a false shoulder for the first firing), which blows the shoulder forward close to 1/10". After the fireforming is done, I FL size subsequent reloads ... lots of them. Never have issues.
I am not aware of any headspace issues created by FL sizing new or 1X Fired brass?

Your 6 Dasher does have the advantage in that you likely have a custom FL "Bump Die" or one that was manufactured to within 0.001" tolerance at neck shoulder and base. The very best example of this is the Forrester 6.5-6X47L die which also only works the neck about 0.001-0.002" past what is necessary for proper bullet tension. This totally eliminates the need for truing up necks, neck sizing or bushing dies as the dies form the necks on the 6.5x47Lapua brass down perfectly to 6mm. Of course fire forming is still required which does work the brass.

If homesteader is really interested in learning something new I will try to explain what I think is an even better way of doing things. I have never been a fan of fire-forming and "improving" a case by blowing it out to 40 degrees does not appeal to me. As virtually all brass is manufactured to minimum specs I decided to have dies made to form brass to new brass dimensions or slightly smaller if necessary to get the case size I want. In the case of the 6x47L I would have left the shoulder at 1.400" instead of blowing it forward to 1.4047" and shrunk the diameter a bit to 0.4465" instead of blowing it out to 0.4563" or nearly 0.0010". By cutting the chamber with the shoulder the same height at 1.400" but 0.003" larger in diameter and giving the neck 0.003" clearance we create about 0.001" HS at the shoulder datum. This actually maintains the 30 degree shoulder angle of the brass while only blowing the diameter out by 0.003" instead of nearly 0.010". Running it back through the die just moves the neck and shoulder back to its newly formed position. Clearance at the base datum is kept to a minimum of 0.0150" and does not move much, if any if low pressure loads are used.

By doing this brass can be formed to your chamber, fire-forming is eliminated and brass stretch is almost eliminated as well. The biggest advantage is that you form, develop a load and shoot. Fired brass comes out exactly the same size as the newly formed brass so you just reload and shoot. It has been difficult getting people to understand and accept this concept but a few of us have been enjoying the benefits of my EXTREME designs. I am currently working on a 25 caliber as someone has requested that I do one for him.

[260 Rem]

Sorry Chuck, I'm not following your explanation. Unless the dimensions of the Saami spec'd sizer die are smaller than those of the Saami spec'd "new case", the shoulder should not be set back .... Nor should the headspace datum point which is forward of the case body / neck junction
My mention of the Dasher was made only as an example of how far a shoulder can be blown forward .... and then repeatedly fired, without having negative effect on brass thickness ... which is an issue in case head separation.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Sorry Chuck, I'm not following your explanation. Unless the dimensions of the Saami spec'd sizer die are smaller than those of the Saami spec'd "new case", the shoulder should not be set back .... Nor should the headspace datum point which is forward of the case body / neck junction
My mention of the Dasher was made only as an example of how far a shoulder can be blown forward .... and then repeatedly fired, without having negative effect on brass thickness ... which is an issue in case head separation.

You can indeed set shoulders back on virgin cases with standard dies.

Re the dasher: Then why do you set a false shoulder? Answer, It's to prevent excessive headspace. Which in turn can cause all kinds of problems. One being case head seperation.

[tchardy1972]

Originally Posted by chuck

You can indeed set shoulders back on virgin cases with standard dies.

Re the dasher: Then why do you set a false shoulder? Answer, It's to prevent excessive headspace. Which in turn can cause all kinds of problems. One being case head seperation.

Exactly. The false shoulder prevents all the brass stretch from happening at the web and takes it from the whole case.

[bdub]

Originally Posted by chuck

Never, never FL size new brass (and be careful not to do it with once fired brass either) You can create headspace issues, cause premature case head seperation etc. if they need it, run the necks over the expander ball with new brass and carefully miss the shoulder with most once and twice fired stuff.

I don't buy that. If you have early case head separation I doubt it is caused full length sizing of new brass or once or twice fired brass. You have an issue with the rifle imo. I would love to hear the reason that this may happen in a properly chambered rifle.

[Pathfinder76]

Wow. Is there a range that offers a reloading course? I should sign up.

[Pathfinder76]

Virgin case.


Virgin case sized with die touching shell holder.


What exactly are we trying to accomplish by sizing new cases again?

[bdub]

What exactly are we trying to accomplish by sizing new cases again?[/QUOTE]


I do it to both clean up the necks and make sure it chambers 100% of the time in my rifle.

As far as full length sizing being so dangerous I'm Just trying to learn something Chuck. I don't understand how full length sizing can lead to so much trouble unless there is something wrong with the rifle. I'm thinking partial and neck sizing could lead to far more problems than they are worth, especially reloading for hunting.

[Pathfinder76]

You don't need to FL size new cases.

[Bergerboy]

Just read this thread to learn something. I am now completely confused as to what is being discussed. Can you guys provide some clarity when you get a chance?

[bdub]

Originally Posted by chuck

You don't need to FL size new cases.

Fair enough. You probably don't need to 99.9% of the time but it gives me peace of mind knowing that piece of brass will chamber. I just don't understand the negative aspects of it, the how and why part is what I would like to learn about.

[tchardy1972]

I think what chuck is trying to say is, the new brass measured 3.117" out of the bag and 3.115 after being run through the die. That is an extra .002" that case will need to grow to fit the chamber. Brass has to come from somewhere in order for the case to grow longer and it always comes from right in front of the web of the case. When the fire formed case is put into the full length die now that shoulder is pushed back but the brass does not go back where it come from. The next time its shot it stretches again taking brass from just in front of the web. After several cycles of this you will get case head separation.

I do use some full length sizing dies, but I make sure to never push the shoulder back more than .001-.0015" and I have brass with many loadings.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by tchardy1972

I think what chuck is trying to say is, the new brass measured 3.117" out of the bag and 3.115 after being run through the die. That is an extra .002" that case will need to grow to fit the chamber. Brass has to come from somewhere in order for the case to grow longer and it always comes from right in front of the web of the case. When the fire formed case is put into the full length die now that shoulder is pushed back but the brass does not go back where it come from. The next time its shot it stretches again taking brass from just in front of the web. After several cycles of this you will get case head separation.

I do use some full length sizing dies, but I make sure to never push the shoulder back more than .001-.0015" and I have brass with many loadings.

We can see that this is the case with at least one example, the question is, does this apply to every brand of brass, in every chambering, with every FL die? Given the variations in factory brass, and even in dies, I certainly wouldn't bet on that being the case. Some FL dies might push the shoulder back on some factory brass, and other dies may not push back the shoulder on some factory brass.