Hunting draw allocations decreasing year over year in WMU 406

[reaperofridges]

I’ve noticed that for at least the past four hunting seasons they’ve been giving out fewer and fewer tags for white-tailed deer, elk, mule deer, and moose, and I find it hard to believe that this is due to the population of animals decreasing based on how many animals I see while out scouting and bow hunting.

For antlered whitetails they gave out 200 tags in 2021, 200 in 2022, 175 in 2023, and now only 125 in 2024, a 37.5% decrease in 4 years.

For antlered mule deer they gave out 80 in 2021, 75 in 2022, 63 in 2023, and now 42 in 2024, a 47.5% decrease in 4 years.

For antlered elk they gave out 20 in 2021, 20 in 2022, 20 in 2023, and now only 5 in 2024, a 75% decrease in 4 years.

For antlered moose they gave out 60 in 2021, 62 in 2022, 40 in 2023, and now 25 in 2024, a 58.3% decrease in 4 years.

For a WMU where it already takes multiple years of priority to draw a tag this is only making the problem of point creep worse. Considering that they already give recreationalists priority over hunters in this WMU by postponing season start dates until after Labour Day long weekend in order to “avoid conflicts”, it wouldn’t surprise me if this decrease in tag allocations is reflecting the same sentiment, and they simply just want less hunters in K-country. Certainly frustrating to say the least when you’re hoping to draw a tag this year but they decide to reduce the number of tags they’re giving out. Thoughts?

[huntinstuff]

Your observations of the animals in the area are irrelevant and likely wrong and grossly inaccurate because you did not pay for a 4 year arts degree with a minor in lesbian interpretive dance. Nor have you seen a Jane Goodall movie....nor did you watch a nature series narrated by Barack Obama

If you need some advice, come see me. I own the Ukrainian/Palestine/Oilers flag store on 34 ave....

[Smoky buck]

I don’t spend time in K country anymore to speak on the populations. What is definitely an option in areas like K country is they are cutting back hunting opportunities favoring other users

But asking here will likely just get you random guesses

[cowmanbob]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

Your observations of the animals in the area are irrelevant and likely wrong and grossly inaccurate because you did not pay for a 4 year arts degree with a minor in lesbian interpretive dance. Nor have you seen a Jane Goodall movie....nor did you watch a nature series narrated by Barack Obama

If you need some advice, come see me. I own the Ukrainian/Palestine/Oilers flag store on 34 ave....

You really keep outdoing yourself, patiently waiting for the next one.

[Knotter]

Growing squirrel pasture in 404, 406 and 408. Elk don't eat spruce and pine. Couple that with a city of a million+ right on top of it, the zone is more weekend barbecue habitat than prime elk country. If there was a herd of 4000 in the zone then I could see the op's point. It ain't there.the zone has been in decline for hunting for a long time. When there are elk, they fatten up and winter in the private stuff in 312... where there is grass and a much lower human presence.

And congrats to this forum on getting right to a full derailment in the first response - no mention of crappy hockey teams, middle east or eastern Europe in in the opener.

[tullfan]

Originally Posted by huntinstuff

Your observations of the animals in the area are irrelevant and likely wrong and grossly inaccurate because you did not pay for a 4 year arts degree with a minor in lesbian interpretive dance. Nor have you seen a Jane Goodall movie....nor did you watch a nature series narrated by Barack Obama

If you need some advice, come see me. I own the Ukrainian/Palestine/Oilers flag store on 34 ave....

Damn son, I thought for sure the lesbian interpretative dance was going to take me places. So you’re saying opt out of that class? Sheesh, back to binging on Obama narrated programs.

Tullfan

[huntinstuff]

Originally Posted by cowmanbob

You really keep outdoing yourself, patiently waiting for the next one.

Lol

The OP made such a great observation and fact check that I had nothing to add........except perhaps some attempt at humour ......coupled with the fact I was parked at Safeway and was bored......

[huntinstuff]

Originally Posted by Knotter

And congrats to this forum on getting right to a full derailment in the first response - no mention of crappy hockey teams, middle east or eastern Europe in in the opener.

The forum did nothing....it was all me. I take full credit and if there's a prize for moronic stupidity, I want that too.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by Knotter

Growing squirrel pasture in 404, 406 and 408. Elk don't eat spruce and pine. Couple that with a city of a million+ right on top of it, the zone is more weekend barbecue habitat than prime elk country. If there was a herd of 4000 in the zone then I could see the op's point. It ain't there.the zone has been in decline for hunting for a long time. When there are elk, they fatten up and winter in the private stuff in 312... where there is grass and a much lower human presence.

And congrats to this forum on getting right to a full derailment in the first response - no mention of crappy hockey teams, middle east or eastern Europe in in the opener.

Kill some predators and do some burning/logging. The animals just ain't there like they used to be for those reasons.
Lot's of squirrels though...

[Knotter]

Originally Posted by MountainTi

Kill some predators and do some burning/logging. The animals just ain't there like they used to be for those reasons.
Lot's of squirrels though...

That I can't shoot... dammit.

[walking buffalo]

Wolves, and Bears and Cougars.....

The population of Elk, Moose and Mule Deer have crashed over the last twenty years.


Viewing wildlife management with a four year insight is nearsighted.

[fainthopeacres]

reaperofridges ~ it's funny you mentioned this as I have been discussing this with my hubby for the past four or so years. 404 has been our go to zone for draws for a very long time (at least 20+) & it's the only one we apply for. 404 is a tough zone but it has been very - very good to us both. There used to be numerous tags - especially for mule & white tail deer. But for the past four or five years, the tags keep getting less and less and less yet the number of animals we not only see in person as well as capture on camera leave us scratching our heads! Especially wt deer - it's insane! Trust me, you're not alone with wondering what's happening. Never thought of the other users in the area - especially the x-mas tree folk (which has really exploded the past few years). Had a mulie draw back in 2019 when there was a ton of snow. My husband dropped me off at one spot and he headed back into general 308. Well, I get all hiked in to my spot and within an hour of sitting there I could hear kids screaming, dogs barking and people chattering. I gathered all my stuff and headed back out. I stopped in the trees and there they were - a family of x-mas tree cutters looking for trees. The snow was extremely deep so they followed my tracks in. Very scary indeed & that ended my hunt for close to three hours! So yes, It would not surprise me that they are in fact cutting tags back due to other users. I guess we'll just enjoy whatever time we have left in this zone. Hubbies going on 72 and I ain't no spring chickie anymore either - LOL - got my moose last season and well, lets just say it was not fun haul out!

[dalewig]

I hope I’m looking at it wrong , but looks like number of bull elk tags for 404 was dropped from 25 to 3, wtf !!! Makes no sense, as while I know elk populations aren’t great , some very knowledgeable people about the zone have told me they think elk numbers are slightly rising from a low point 7 or so years back.

Reducing to 3 tags basically would make it impossible to draw, or would become like a p20 or something. I hope some explanation is given ….

[elkhunter11]

So has the population really dropped dramatically, or have the allocations been reduced for some other reason? If the population hasn't dropped dramatically, who would want resident allocations dropped? Outfitter allocations will not be reduced annually, it can be five years or more before they are reduced at all, even if the population has really dropped that much. If the outfitter allocations are dropped as well, in a few years, then perhaps the population is the reason , if not, there are other factors at play.

[spirit4u]

elkhunter, I'm not to worried about outfitters in 404. Last year was poking around in there and caught one of their horses. Next day 3 of them rode past me in the brush under 10 yards away, didn't even see me, lol. Was going to wavy and say Hi, but didn't want to spook the horses. Geez you're on horses ride a little further back in than I can walk.

[Pekan]

Good post and an interesting topic.

Here's my speculation based on talking to Grant Chapman a few years back. Grant is/was the guy who leads the F&W for the South Sask watershed area.
This guy definitely doesn't have an arts degree and wants to kill an elk just as bad as everyone on here.

They're probably not spending the $$ on helicopter air surveys but are going off the hunter harvest data they've been collecting over the past few years. Again, this is just speculation.

For hunters, it's definitely easy to imagine a system that has an agenda to keep hunters away or reduce hunter opportunity for political or other reasons but I don't think this is the case. This is most likely a purely a data driven decision.

Having said that, the May 15th end to the Black bear season is ridiculous. And Grant did admit that this is to avoid hunter-recreationalist conflict.
There's no bear food available in most of 406 before May 15th. So why even have a season.

[dalewig]

I appreciate the insight Pekan , but having trouble accepting this was a data driven decision….. Bull elk harvest in 404 dropped dramatically back in 2017/2018 (I’ve heard wolves were especially bad then) so why not decrease the tags back then, rather then waiting till now…. 2023 bull elk harvest in 2023 was actually a little better then past years (8 bulls) , which potentially correlates with knowledgeable people of that zone thinking elk numbers are on slight increase. Decrease in tags from 25 to 3 just seems so dramatic as well, and on top of that does harvesting mature 6 point bulls actually have much effect on overall elk population ? Not long ago you could draw this zone every 3/4 years , and this will now turn it into 20 plus years

[reaperofridges]

Originally Posted by Pekan

Good post and an interesting topic.

Here's my speculation based on talking to Grant Chapman a few years back. Grant is/was the guy who leads the F&W for the South Sask watershed area.
This guy definitely doesn't have an arts degree and wants to kill an elk just as bad as everyone on here.

They're probably not spending the $$ on helicopter air surveys but are going off the hunter harvest data they've been collecting over the past few years. Again, this is just speculation.

For hunters, it's definitely easy to imagine a system that has an agenda to keep hunters away or reduce hunter opportunity for political or other reasons but I don't think this is the case. This is most likely a purely a data driven decision.

Having said that, the May 15th end to the Black bear season is ridiculous. And Grant did admit that this is to avoid hunter-recreationalist conflict.
There's no bear food available in most of 406 before May 15th. So why even have a season.

You’re right Pekan, I sent an email to Grant asking about it and he said that since 2016 they’ve been receiving better harvest data which has resulted in corrected population estimates making them believe populations and productivity in the WMU are decreasing and below objectives. He also mentioned that specifically for elk and moose, a lot of harvest occurs in the general archery season, therefore they have to allocate fewer special licenses to accommodate for that.

Although it appears to be a data driven decision like you suggested, it is interesting to hear that other people in this thread feel similarly to me and have noticed the decrease in tags while it appears to us as though populations are doing alright. Makes me wonder how accurate Alberta Fish and Wildlife’s population estimates really are without doing aerial surveys.

[WinefredCommander]

Originally Posted by reaperofridges

He also mentioned that specifically for elk and moose, a lot of harvest occurs in the general archery season, therefore they have to allocate fewer special licenses to accommodate for that.

Although it appears to be a data driven decision like you suggested, it is interesting to hear that other people in this thread feel similarly to me and have noticed the decrease in tags while it appears to us as though populations are doing alright. Makes me wonder how accurate Alberta Fish and Wildlife’s population estimates really are without doing aerial surveys.

Then dump archery hunters over the counter tag! That’s BS archery hunters are trumping DRAW allocations!!

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by WinefredCommander

Then dump archery hunters over the counter tag! That’s BS archery hunters are trumping DRAW allocations!!

Let’s just make everything draw and when you take an animal of that species you can’t apply again till everyone else has filled a tag to keep it fair. Oh and after 10 years of hunting you must retire so new hunters get a chance

Or we could stop crying about hunting opportunities that are available to anyone who chooses to predicate in the season. Even if you have a disability you can even pick up a crossbow to be included

[Lefty-Canuck]

Allocations pretty much decreasing everywhere, especially for mule deer. Wait times are going to get massive.

LC

[dalewig]

Back when I first started exploring 404 in 2017 bull elk was about a p3 to draw , a reduction to 3 tags will make it virtually impossible to draw, likely a p20+ eventually , similar to ya ha tinda

[fainthopeacres]

Harvest numbers in 404 are relatively low each year which can be seen on the hunter harvest history. If the reduction in tags is due to higher harvest data, I'm still scratching my head. I get this in some zones harvest rates have been good, but that doesn't seem to be the case in 404 or am I missing something?

[wind drift]

The annual survey reports are here. Looks like very few surveys were done in the 100s in the past three years and none in the 200s so I dont see how the “getting better data” reason makes sense. Actually, the last year of any real survey effort in the south was 2021.

https://www.alberta.ca/aerial-wildli...ts#jumplinks-1

[Dubious]

Bios also use ABHuntlog to help with population estimates. Might want to consider using it as well to help out.

[itshubbard]

Going from 25 tags down to 3 doesn’t make any sense. The harvest has increased recently in 404 because the Elk are doing better. Wmu 404 covers such a large, diverse and productive area that giving out 3 rifle tags defies all logic. Between the 6 point restriction, the terrain and the access restrictions, success rates have always been low. Someone’s going to have to explain this one to me, dropping 88% of the tags is a major thing, lots of people are understandably upset. I have nothing against the outfitting industry but with these changes we’re left with 4 rifle tags for outfitter allocation and 3 for residents which is a tough pill to swallow.

[dalewig]

Basically have all the same thoughts as above.

While we can’t know for sure, I expect 402 and 404 to have roughly similar elk densities , so I’d like the bios in charge to explain why 402 has open rifle season on 3 points , yet they felt the need to reduce rifle tags in 404 to basically nothing (3). In addition, if they’ve been concerned about elk numbers in 404 , why have they allowed cows during general archery season.

Im concerned decision may be linked to limiting rifle hunting opportunities in k-country. 404 has a very high level number of general hikers , where as 402 has next to none.

[Pekan]

Originally Posted by reaperofridges

You’re right Pekan, I sent an email to Grant asking about it and he said that since 2016 they’ve been receiving better harvest data which has resulted in corrected population estimates making them believe populations and productivity in the WMU are decreasing and below objectives. He also mentioned that specifically for elk and moose, a lot of harvest occurs in the general archery season, therefore they have to allocate fewer special licenses to accommodate for that.

Although it appears to be a data driven decision like you suggested, it is interesting to hear that other people in this thread feel similarly to me and have noticed the decrease in tags while it appears to us as though populations are doing alright. Makes me wonder how accurate Alberta Fish and Wildlife’s population estimates really are without doing aerial surveys.

Aerial surveys seems like an essential tool. Pricey, but essential.

[Pekan]

Originally Posted by dalewig

Basically have all the same thoughts as above.

While we can’t know for sure, I expect 402 and 404 to have roughly similar elk densities , so I’d like the bios in charge to explain why 402 has open rifle season on 3 points , yet they felt the need to reduce rifle tags in 404 to basically nothing (3). In addition, if they’ve been concerned about elk numbers in 404 , why have they allowed cows during general archery season.

Im concerned decision may be linked to limiting rifle hunting opportunities in k-country. 404 has a very high level number of general hikers , where as 402 has next to none.

We shouldn't have to speculate. The wildlife managers work for us. Better communication is needed. Public engagement.

[Smoky buck]

Originally Posted by Pekan

We shouldn't have to speculate. The wildlife managers work for us. Better communication is needed. Public engagement.

Once again the only way you are going to get better communication is to have representation that is strongly supported by hunters

As long as hunters are lacking a strongly supported organized voice it’s going to be you get what you get.