Access challenges

[JWCalgary]

Ok, hunting for a few years now but only in the green zone and some private land a friend has in his family. This year, hunting a supp whitetail tag so I need access to leased land. Ok . . . Checked access conditions on the recreational access tool online, just says to contact, no garbage, etc. call the leaseholder, they tell me it's a draw system, the draw has passed and that there may be no dates left to hunt.... Uh what??

Called esrd lands office and am waiting for a call back to see if those conditions can and are actually applied to the lease.

Why is this so difficult??

[deerguy]

I saw something very similar last night. A guy has all sorts of lease land, allows 8 hunters per day, but application deadline to hunt was yesterday.

Don't see how this is legal. Some guys want 20+ days notice but only allow a few guys per day.

[mark-edmonton]

This is why the system needs a revamp! It is leased land for their summer grazing use. Should be stipulations that all animals are off the lease by October 1.

Also seeing as it is crown land we should not need to gain permission to access it! IMHO

[dmcbride]

Originally Posted by mark-edmonton

This is why the system needs a revamp! It is leased land for their summer grazing use. Should be stipulations that all animals are off the lease by October 1.

Also seeing as it is crown land we should not need to gain permission to access it! IMHO

X2

[Deer Hunter]

Just go.

[Cowtown guy]

I'm guessing this is just north of Okotoks kind of?

It isn't really for summer grazing if it's the place I'm thinking of. It's for his own guiding.

[Deer Hunter]

I can think of a handful of leases that operate as if they were private property. It's not a unique situation what your experiencing; it's easy for them to treat rec users this way as most are easily deterred. And settlement officers are for the most part ineffective at dealing with complaints.

[JWCalgary]

Well I am certainly going to follow this one through to some type of conclusion! Hopefully in my favour.

From the stories I hear, our right to access is being restricted. It's simply not right.

Let's see where this can go! Go time! Show time!!

[JWCalgary]

Originally Posted by Cowtown guy

I'm guessing this is just north of Okotoks kind of?

It isn't really for summer grazing if it's the place I'm thinking of. It's for his own guiding.

Not north if okotoks, south of turner valley, but bloody hell, how many times does this happen? I would hazard a guess too often.

[deerguy]

Originally Posted by JWCalgary

Not north if okotoks, south of turner valley, but bloody hell, how many times does this happen? I would hazard a guess too often.

We may have been looking at the same place

[Evil69]

A couple of ranches I hunt are lottery/draw. They run it fair and it's a good system if you are proactive. It gives everyone who applied the same chance and helps control the number of hunters per section for safety. Not to say there are not some lease holders that use it as an excuse but the majority that go through the effort to hold the draw are legit.

I hope you get some satisfaction from ESRD but I would suggest making your calls earlier next year to avoid disappointment

[DiabeticKripple]

i would tell him the dates you are going, and tell him if he has any problems he can meet you at the gate with the RCMP.

Just go.

[Uglystick]

Originally Posted by Evil69

A couple of ranches I hunt are lottery/draw. They run it fair and it's a good system if you are proactive. It gives everyone who applied the same chance and helps control the number of hunters per section for safety. Not to say there are not some lease holders that use it as an excuse but the majority that go through the effort to hold the draw are legit.

I hope you get some satisfaction from ESRD but I would suggest making your calls earlier next year to avoid disappointment

X2 Alberta is all around pretty tough for permission, I to hunt the lottery grazing leases and the people who run it are very acomidating.

[colroggal]

My understanding of crown grazing leases was it is more of a give notice than ask permission situation. Never hunted a lease, but I suppose I should look into it more if I do.

-edit- Above statement is in regards to a lease with no cattle present.
Colin

[Quinn42]

I've hunted a lot of these West and South of Calgary. What I've found is very few leaseholders actually follow the rules as intended and the ones that do are overwhelmed by calls (30+ per day) because they are the only ones granting access properly. I feel for them because they are trying to do it right and it sounds like a major hassle to manage. BUT there is an option for them, "no contact required foot access only". I've found a piece like this and some days its really busy, and some people are jerks and will hunt right around you if you are being slow and quiet but for the most part people are decent, will work with you to hunt ones side, while you do the other and basically help bump critters back and forth. The other problem is the Lands Office allowed restrictions like 3 rec users per day on leases that are 3 or more quarters in size. That ends up being the leaser and his kids and he can say "Its full". The choice should be on the rec user, do I want to go in when it looks like someone is there, or do I want to come back on a Tuesday, or when the weather is different etc. Scheduling days sounds like a way to make it more complicated than it needs to be.

[muzzy]

Any conditions as too accessing a grazing lease are set up by leasee and govt ahead of time and are posted on the government website for all to read. If nothing posted there are no conditions.
Livestock have to be removed by Oct 31. The livestock is usually a common reason for not allowing access ( as posted in conditions) but they have to be gone by Oct 31 so that condition is a mute point after then
I was told by Govt Land manager that there isnt a restriction as to how many can access lease unless it has been specifically agreed to between leasee and govt and that would be set out on website conditions. leasee often say "my quota is full" if its not on posted condition there is no quota.
The government land manager is the person to contact if there are any issues to access. If you are having trouble no doubt many before you have also and the land manager is likely aware. They will contact the leasee and advise them of what is right or wrong and let you know that they did talk to leasee. It will still be up to you to them contact the leasee to finalize your access to land.
I have had great results with the govt land manager in settling disputes( misunderstandings) on my accessing crown leases. I used to back off I dont anymore, if I legally have a right to access a crown lease then I'll follow the rules to a "T" and access it.
I do know that if there are flagrant violations they can and will take a lease away. It happen last year very close to me and I now enjoy hunting that lease

[The moose]

Originally Posted by muzzy

Any conditions as too accessing a grazing lease are set up by leasee and govt ahead of time and are posted on the government website for all to read. If nothing posted there are no conditions.
Livestock have to be removed by Oct 31. The livestock is usually a common reason for not allowing access ( as posted in conditions) but they have to be gone by Oct 31 so that condition is a mute point after then
I was told by Govt Land manager that there isnt a restriction as to how many can access lease unless it has been specifically agreed to between leasee and govt and that would be set out on website conditions. leasee often say "my quota is full" if its not on posted condition there is no quota.
The government land manager is the person to contact if there are any issues to access. If you are having trouble no doubt many before you have also and the land manager is likely aware. They will contact the leasee and advise them of what is right or wrong and let you know that they did talk to leasee. It will still be up to you to them contact the leasee to finalize your access to land.
I have had great results with the govt land manager in settling disputes( misunderstandings) on my accessing crown leases. I used to back off I dont anymore, if I legally have a right to access a crown lease then I'll follow the rules to a "T" and access it.
I do know that if there are flagrant violations they can and will take a lease away. It happen last year very close to me and I now enjoy hunting that lease

This is very spot on. Here is the thing, If a leasee has established guidelines with the government and has upheld these conditions you have no right at a "Just go" mentality and may find yourself in a tough situation.

while there are some/many land leases out there that abuse the situation, There are many that do follow the guidelines and have a legitimate claim to limit access.

Myself I have had better results by contacting the land leasee introducing myself if access is not granted I agree and let them know I will be phoning again next year in hopes access will be granted in the future.

This has worked for me on 4 different leases and even has provided me access to non leased private land either they own or their neighbors friendly to hunters.

Give and take People, give and take.

[thunderbird]

Originally Posted by JWCalgary

Ok, hunting for a few years now but only in the green zone and some private land a friend has in his family. This year, hunting a supp whitetail tag so I need access to leased land. Ok . . . Checked access conditions on the recreational access tool online, just says to contact, no garbage, etc. call the leaseholder, they tell me it's a draw system, the draw has passed and that there may be no dates left to hunt.... Uh what??

Called esrd lands office and am waiting for a call back to see if those conditions can and are actually applied to the lease.

Why is this so difficult??

did you get any reply from the esrd lands office

[JWCalgary]

Originally Posted by thunderbird

did you get any reply from the esrd lands office

Of course no response from lands, but after chasing the lessee, I have my access for some time in November. Great news for me, hopefully bad news for a WT doe.

The access conditions were not listed anywhere so Iam still going to pursue the information through the lands officer. I wonder if I will ever get a callback?

Although this story has a decent end for me, I would encourage everyone to keep up with asserting our rights. After this experience, I know I will keep my voice heard.

Safe and successful hunting to all this year!

[Xbolthunter]

My family has lease land in between 4 sections of ours, only way to a access it through our drive way or to cross our land we allow so many hunters to it as we don't allow them to hunt on our land still doesn't work. Ask them to park here and walk in and they do as they please. Always have ppl whining and crying and threaten to call cops about it.

[Puma]

I was recently at a lease auction. It was made very clear that the new lease holder was to not restrict other users from accessing and using the land.


The conditions were the conditions, PERIOD. No making up your own rules.

We, the people of Alberta have been too quiet ,for too long on this.

This is public land.

[DCse7en]

Originally Posted by Xbolthunter

My family has lease land in between 4 sections of ours, only way to a access it through our drive way or to cross our land we allow so many hunters to it as we don't allow them to hunt on our land still doesn't work. Ask them to park here and walk in and they do as they please. Always have ppl whining and crying and threaten to call cops about it.

This is why many farmers do not allow hunters any more. Very frustrating for those of us who played by their rules on their land....Leased land belongs to us all though...really gets on my nerves when people ruin fences and gates, leaves trash etc, and wrecks it for the rest of us....

[Bobbydee]

Originally Posted by DCse7en

This is why many farmers do not allow hunters any more. Very frustrating for those of us who played by their rules on their land....Leased land belongs to us all though...really gets on my nerves when people ruin fences and gates, leaves trash etc, and wrecks it for the rest of us....

X2

[OpenRange]

I have lease land, I understand your concerns. Question though, why would you wanna be the 20th person on that lease? If the guy has a draw or waiting list to get on to hunt then why not go elsewhere? I hunt and I sure as hell want fewer people around not more when I'm trying to get an animal. I'm lucky, I haven't had a single guy come up and ask for permission and after being told no they go and start shooting off about the rules and some outdated website they feel is like getting the info from the hand of God. I have entered conditions 5 times to public lands, they have been approved, put up on the site and then sudden they disappear and it lists no conditions. The site is unreliable and I do not suggest people use it for anything other than getting the leaseholders contact info and possible farm/ranch location.

[JWCalgary]

Originally Posted by OpenRange

I have lease land, I understand your concerns. Question though, why would you wanna be the 20th person on that lease? If the guy has a draw or waiting list to get on to hunt then why not go elsewhere? I hunt and I sure as hell want fewer people around not more when I'm trying to get an animal. I'm lucky, I haven't had a single guy come up and ask for permission and after being told no they go and start shooting off about the rules and some outdated website they feel is like getting the info from the hand of God. I have entered conditions 5 times to public lands, they have been approved, put up on the site and then sudden they disappear and it lists no conditions. The site is unreliable and I do not suggest people use it for anything other than getting the leaseholders contact info and possible farm/ranch location.

Why would I be the 20th person? I get your point but that's not the issue. I want to hunt that land and it's my right.

Snarky comments aside, The true issue at hand, which has been partially resolved, was the fact that the conditions were not posted on the government site I accessed, whether by some less than legit reason or not. I did my part and contacted the leaseholder, and am now onto the lands office (still no response by the way). If this is to work in the long run, each of us has to do our part. We all put some hard earned tax money into the access site. If its not working, lets go back to maps and rotary phones and forget trying to "improve" the wheel.

[VE6WTF]

Speaking of leases... anyone ever heard of Stew Mckay?

This guy has ALOT, anyone ever delt eith him?

[CantThinkOfAName]

This Stewart McKay? http://esrd.alberta.ca/about-us/cont...-contacts.aspx
I've talked to him before. He's always helpful and knows answers to questions. If I remember correctly he'll refer you to the "managers" of whichever site you're talking about.

[Mulehahn]

Originally Posted by OpenRange

... I'm lucky, I haven't had a single guy come up and ask for permission and after being told no they go and start shooting off about the rules and some outdated website they feel is like getting the info from the hand of God. I have entered conditions 5 times to public lands, they have been approved, put up on the site and then sudden they disappear and it lists no conditions. The site is unreliable and I do not suggest people use it for anything other than getting the leaseholders contact info and possible farm/ranch location.

First, let me say that I believe you when you say that you have had conditions approved and posted, only to be mysteriously disappear. The problem arises when, as was pointed out earlier,

"Any conditions as too accessing a grazing lease are set up by leasee and govt ahead of time and are posted on the government website for all to read. If nothing posted there are no conditions."

If a hunter goes to the website and there are no conditions listed and they can access it without crossing private property the only obligation he really has is to tell the lease holder when they will be there, not to ask permission. Out of courtesy I believe they should make every attempt to contact the lease holder and discuss it with them, but they do not have to. It is public land. How is a hunter to know what information is up to date, or accurate, when the only direction they are told is to check the website. The whole system needs to be updated with input on all sides.

[purgatory.sv]

As a troll I usually do not seek permission.

But when I arrive at a location that intrigues me I look for information.

I always hope I will find an answer according to rule.


Whose rule I never know, but this forum can give direction.

This is why fire can be a good thing; it warms the atmosphere and creates possibilities.

[Grump]

All I can do is echo your frustration and recommend thinking about access a little earlier in the summer. Can't tell you how many "draws" i missed last year.

Also, make sure you abide by the contact guidelines on the website. I misread a Tuesday for a Wednesday and rightfully got an earful from the leaseholder when I called them on a Tuesday. Live and learn...