Erratic groupings - alternating groups HELP!

[Jesse19]

Hello,

I made an account today in order to make a post and hope that the experienced minds here can help me solve this problem.

I purchased a Savage Axis XPII .30-06 rifle with the Weaver-Kasparov 3-9x40 scope back in 2015. It is my first and only rifle.

I brought it home, cleaned it and oiled the action then took it to the local range back in 2015 and sighted the scope in. Hit paper at 25 yards then zero’d the scope with a close-knit grouping in 2015.

Last year, I upgraded the scope to a Vortex Viper 3-9x40 while they were on sale at North Pro sports here in Saskatoon. The original rings and base were removed and a weaver base added and Burris Zee rings were installed.

I sighted the rifle in last year and was able to knock down a moose.

Problems started however in WT season last year when I started thinking the fun was off. Ended up having WT tag soup so this year I decided to check the rifle and see if the scope was off.

I don’t own an inch-pound torque driver so I did not check the base and ring screws to make sure they were tight. I brought the rifle to North Pro last week to get the top ring screws checked and torqued if necessary.
Then I took it out last Friday and took 8 shots at a target.
Ammunition was Federal Premium Nosler Partition 165 Grain, .30-06 caliber.
I was set up on a shooting bench with a rest and was shooting at a target 100 yards away.


What we found was an alternating shot pattern. There are two groups of bullet holes on the target... but the part I don’t understand is that the rifle seemed to alternate each shot from the lower left quadrant, to about 1” to the right of the bullseye.
See the attached picture. If you zoom in, you’ll see blue numbers beside each hole indicating the order each shot was taken.

What do you guys think could be causing this to happen?

North Pro has taken the scope off and has shipped the scope to Vortex for review and repair/replacement if necessary. I have the old scope mounted again with the new base and new rings. Rifle has been bore sighted and I hope to sight it in at 25 then 100 yards this afternoon so I have a rifle for when mule deer season opens. First time in 7 years being drawn for mule so what crazy timing for this to be happening - a week before the season opens!

Open to all comments and help. Thanks!

[Flight01]

Maybe the scope maybe not. If it’s not way out to lunch and continuing to wander then not likely.
The axis has a super flexible stock. Are you resting the gun in the exact same spot? An inch too far forward and the stock might touch the barrel.

[AndrewM]

Any chance you are pulling the shot and flinching a bit?

[Jesse19]

Originally Posted by Flight01

Maybe the scope maybe not. If it’s not way out to lunch and continuing to wander then not likely.
The axis has a super flexible stock. Are you resting the gun in the exact same spot? An inch too far forward and the stock might touch the barrel.

Thanks for the reply.

I will check today about resting the rifle in the same spot on the rest.
The only variable I can think of is that sometimes I put my finger on the barrel, just above where the sling swivel screws into the stock. I found out that the barrel should “float” so I may be creating this issue myself by touching the barrel at all during the sight in process.

I plan to have the rifle sitting in the rest, no straps or anything to hold it down and to only adjust the rest so the scope holds at the bullseye on the target.

AndrewM - I do not think I am flinching, that’s usually the first question people ask. The nice thing about using the rest is it keeps everything still except for my finger that is slowly squeezing the trigger. I focus on not flinching when shooting to make sure that’s not a factor in these erratic groups.

[AndrewM]

Make sure with a rest you aren't pulling down hard to hold it in position. I have caused erratic groupings by doing this in the past. Sounds like this is what you are doing but just a reminder.

[Dick284]

You’ve likely got a couple three things going on.
1. Changing your grip on the rifle(thumb position)
2. Your hitting the rests with the swivel studs.
3. You’ve got oil on the bottom of the receiver where it contacts the bedding.

Pay attention or investigate these items, and try again.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Jesse19

Thanks for the reply.

I will check today about resting the rifle in the same spot on the rest.
The only variable I can think of is that sometimes I put my finger on the barrel, just above where the sling swivel screws into the stock. I found out that the barrel should “float” so I may be creating this issue myself by touching the barrel at all during the sight in process.

I plan to have the rifle sitting in the rest, no straps or anything to hold it down and to only adjust the rest so the scope holds at the bullseye on the target.

AndrewM - I do not think I am flinching, that’s usually the first question people ask. The nice thing about using the rest is it keeps everything still except for my finger that is slowly squeezing the trigger. I focus on not flinching when shooting to make sure that’s not a factor in these erratic groups.

Sounds like you may be changing the point of impact simply by the way you are holding the rifle.
Get someone to the range with you that is a known good shooter and maybe try and diagnose from there.
Pretty difficult without actually seeing the rifle itself.
Cat

[teledogs]

Consistant shooting position? Make sure your cheek placement is the same always and the way you are looking through the scope is the same.

[Jesse19]

Thanks for all the replies!

I will check oil between the receiver and bedding before shooting this evening. I will also pay attention to how the rifle sits in the rest and how I handle the rifle re: cheek position.

A friend of mine who I would consider a known good shooter shot rounds 6, 7 & 8. At least 7 and 8 were consistent but 6 was a flier.

Will report back tonight. Thanks!

[KegRiver]

Interesting.

Two distinct groups indicate to me that it's not the way you are holding the rifle. More likely is something to do with the scope.

I'm thinking loose mounts or more likely loose reticle, lens or tube component.

What I have found is that when a part within the scope is loose, recoil moves it to one extreme or the other which creates two distinct groups.

Inadequate hold creates a random pattern as does improper bedding.
I suffer a lot from poor hold issues these days. My once steady hands are no longer steady.

In years past I could get a two inch group with most decent rifles, these days I am lucky to get a six inch grouping with that same rifle.
I even get a few fliers with guns I know are capable while using tried and tested ammo. I handload.

I have had a few of scopes go bad and almost always they gave me sifting groups. Sometimes creating two distinct groups, sometimes different groups at different times.

Of course anything is possible, it could still be hold or bedding issues. The best a person can do without handling the rifle themselves is guess based on past experiences.

[KegRiver]

Thinking about this problem reminded me of a scope that went bad on me years ago.

I bought a brand new Anschutz .22 and a Bushnell scope to go with it.
I sighted it in and hunted grouse with it that fall. Then it went into the gun rack for the winter.
In the spring I took it out Beaver hunting, I was trapping in those days.
I didn't check it before heading out and wound up wishing I had. Somewhere along the line a lens inside the scope came loose and when I went to line up on the first Beaver I discovered I couldn't see anything through the scope.
Everything was a blur. No distinct forms could be seen through the scope.

The moral of this story is even a nearly new scope can have issues.

The outcome was, I took the front lens off to get to the loose lens, fixed it and used it successfully for a week.
When I took it in for warranty I was told that I had voided the warranty by taking the front lens off.

Hard lesson to learn but what's a guy to do? Scratch a weeks hunt and many miles of travel or void the warranty? Not an easy choice.

[jcrayford]

Originally Posted by Jesse19

Thanks for all the replies!

I will check oil between the receiver and bedding before shooting this evening. I will also pay attention to how the rifle sits in the rest and how I handle the rifle re: cheek position.

A friend of mine who I would consider a known good shooter shot rounds 6, 7 & 8. At least 7 and 8 were consistent but 6 was a flier.

Will report back tonight. Thanks!

My best hunting buddy taught me a trick this year that helped me on my last couple of sight-ins.

My rifles carry bi-pods, so when I'm sighting in the stock rests on the bi-pods that are attached to the sling studs. My problem in the past was that I was pulling hard into my shoulder to reduce "felt" or observed recoil when the shot touched off.

The trick my buddy showed me was to get all lined up on target, then push slightly forward with my shoulder to "load" the legs of the bi-pod. This method eliminates me having to pull hard into my shoulder, allowing for very much reduced shooter influence over holding on target. I literally have my left hand (I shoot right handed) under the base of the comb at my right shoulder for vertical support only and the only other part of my skin touching the rifle in any way is the contact point of trigger finger (which, BTW is shown here by Kirsten Joy Weiss).

In making these adjustments, my groupings have went from excessive (larger than I want) to extremely tight for my abilities. I'm a much happier shooter now and looking forward to having a calm, relaxed shot on an animal soon.

J.

[wind drift]

From the evidence, I suspect the culprit is the new scope, with a reticle shifting between two points. With the old scope mounted, I expect the problem will go away, and once sighted in, you’ll be good to go for the season opener. Let us know how it turns out.

[mindoutside]

I had a situation come up with this in my remington
30-06. I was trying new ammo. Hornady
165's and I got a triangle like group. They literally hit the points of the triangle in order each time, one after the other. Grabbed a box of nosler 165 and sure enough the group was tighter and no pattern.

Could be the bullet

[Dick284]

Notice the OP never reported back............

I wonder what he found?

[mindoutside]

Originally Posted by Dick284

Notice the OP never reported back............

I wonder what he found?

maybe he will soon. It's only been a couple days

[jcrayford]

Originally Posted by Dick284

Notice the OP never reported back............

I wonder what he found?

I'm guessing that a scope switch and range time, combined with possibly hunting today could have delayed the report....

J.

[Jesse19]

Sorry for the delay in replying. Was a very busy week last week between sighting in, preparing for the trip, taking care of our pup (7 month old Chocolate Lab) and work, hockey, yadda yadda. Busy week + decreasing amount of daylight each day + Saskatchewan October weather (crap) took me to Friday last week to finish sighting the old scope in before taking off on our hunting trip in Southern Sask.

Anyways - for the update:

Local gun shop took the Vortex scope off and mounted the Weaver Kaspa scope that came with the rifle. They bore sighted the scope and sent the Vortex scope back to Vortex for review/repair/replacement. I picked up a couple boxes of Federal Blue Box 150 grain in the meantime and headed out to the range I have been using to sight in the rifle.

Was able to get the rifle grouping at 100 yards. The Federal blue box 150 grain ammo seems to shoot better out of the rifle than the Nosler Partition 165s. I also prefer spending $1 per bullet instead of $2.50/bullet.

There was no "back and forth" pattern with the Weaver Kaspa scope and I was able to hit a pop can at 200 yards last Friday.

We went hunting in Southeast Sask and I was able to knock down a mule buck. I am not an experienced shooter but I was quite pleased with the boiler room shot at 100 yards.

This coming sunday/monday we are going to try to fill our antlerless mule tags closer to Saskatoon before WT opens on the 15th.

Thanks for the suggestions on what could have been wrong with my setup. Right now, the only difference I can think of is the scope being bad, which is weird because it was on at the beginning of last year. No word yet from Vortex/gunshop about what Vortex's review found.

Good luck to everybody this season!

[AndrewM]

Glad you found a solution. Vortex warranty is great so they will most likely fix it or send you a new one.

[outdoorsman12b]

If you have already confirmed:

- action screws/bases/rings are torqued properly
- no cant in scope (level to action or bore)
- your not flinching (to confirm this setup on a target at a range and dry fire. You will notice right away)
-ammo. I this a new ammo or has it been known to shoot consistently good out of your rifle? Is there other ammo you have used with success?
- trigger is adjusted down if possible to something reasonable for pull weight? (if trigger to high the squeeze becomes a press)
- position - make sure nothing is touching the barrel and ideally it will be floated from stock)

If all of this is consistent then you may just have a poor performing rifle. You did not note what the initial tight grouping was? How many shots? I am assuming that you were shooting in similar environmental conditions.

Everything else being addressed your rifle may just not like that ammo. I typically avoid all federal ammo as the QC is poor. Aside from fushions and Barnes I have not had anything shoot well in their lineup.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Jesse19

Sorry for the delay in replying. Was a very busy week last week between sighting in, preparing for the trip, taking care of our pup (7 month old Chocolate Lab) and work, hockey, yadda yadda. Busy week + decreasing amount of daylight each day + Saskatchewan October weather (crap) took me to Friday last week to finish sighting the old scope in before taking off on our hunting trip in Southern Sask.

Anyways - for the update:

Local gun shop took the Vortex scope off and mounted the Weaver Kaspa scope that came with the rifle. They bore sighted the scope and sent the Vortex scope back to Vortex for review/repair/replacement. I picked up a couple boxes of Federal Blue Box 150 grain in the meantime and headed out to the range I have been using to sight in the rifle.

Was able to get the rifle grouping at 100 yards. The Federal blue box 150 grain ammo seems to shoot better out of the rifle than the Nosler Partition 165s. I also prefer spending $1 per bullet instead of $2.50/bullet.

There was no "back and forth" pattern with the Weaver Kaspa scope and I was able to hit a pop can at 200 yards last Friday.

We went hunting in Southeast Sask and I was able to knock down a mule buck. I am not an experienced shooter but I was quite pleased with the boiler room shot at 100 yards.

This coming sunday/monday we are going to try to fill our antlerless mule tags closer to Saskatoon before WT opens on the 15th.

Thanks for the suggestions on what could have been wrong with my setup. Right now, the only difference I can think of is the scope being bad, which is weird because it was on at the beginning of last year. No word yet from Vortex/gunshop about what Vortex's review found.

Good luck to everybody this season!

Very glad you got things sorted out!
Oftentimes fixing an equipment issue is actually easier than fixing a shooter issue, the trick is to figure out which one is the problem!
Cat

[ctd]

Friends dont let friends buy Vortex scopes.

[aardvaark]

In post #4 you mentioned that sometimes you put your finger on the barrel. That will cause a ‘flier’ every time. Especially on a free floated barrel. Because you’re interrupting the harmonics of the barrel.

I’m surprised nobody else noticed that info in post #4.

What you can do to test this is to shoot a group, then try to shoot into that same group with your finger on the barrel. And try it with different amounts of finger pressure on the barrel. You’ll likely be surprised with what your gun does.

[Full Curl Earl]

A finger touching the barrel shouldnt send fliers in my experience, or the same harmonics thinking would say that a finger touching a poorly shooting barrel may remedy it. I suspect that finger is lightly resting on the barrel.

[Dean2]

My suggestion, sell the Vortex as soon as a new one shows up. Get a Leupold and never look back. I tried a bunch of Vortex scopes because I got a good deal on buying a few at one time. They all went in more than once and after I got one back for the third time I sold all of them. My big game rifles are either Swaro or Leupold only now. In 50 years of hunting have never sent a Leupold back that I didn't break myself.

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by aardvaark

in post #4 you mentioned that sometimes you put your finger on the barrel. That will cause a ‘flier’ every time. Especially on a free floated barrel. Because you’re interrupting the harmonics of the barrel.

I’m surprised nobody else noticed that info in post #4.

What you can do to test this is to shoot a group, then try to shoot into that same group with your finger on the barrel. And try it with different amounts of finger pressure on the barrel. You’ll likely be surprised with what your gun does.

this^^
Same as those "marksmen" who shoot with their hand resting on the scope..

[wmd]

It could have been the ammo. My 7 mag hated barnes and loves hornady eldx.

[GMX]

I know this isn’t the issue the OP had with his rifle but I’ll put it out there incase someone has this problem. Years ago I was getting ready for my mountain caribou trip and was shooting every other day. I had consistent accuracy until the week before I left what I’d done is put ten to fifteen wraps of electrical tape on the barrel just passed the stock. I read it was a good idea to do when up in the mountains so it’s always with you. Not so much is what I found out it sure messed with my gun took it off and back to normal grouping.

[propliner]

I'm having the same problem with a new cheapo Leupold American Markman. It prints L-R-L-R-L into two distinct groups. I let another guy at the range shoot it and same thing. I'll have to try a different scope.

[32-40win]

Wondering if the OP shot any more of the original Federal Premium 165 gr ammo after swapping the scope back. Changing three variables such as the ammo, bullet weight and the scope all at the same time, doesn't necessarily provide a definitive answer as to which was actually the issue.