Cast bullets in a Marlin Guide Gun

[7mm08]

So, I was playing with the idea of loading some 405 gr Cactus Plains bullets as bear protection to use in my 45-70 Marlin Guide Gun. My recipe would be a 405 gr bullet over 37 gr of IMR 4198. This keeps velocity around 1500 fps from my 18 1/2 inch barrel.
My concern is...will the cast bullets shoot accurately? I wont be looking for accuracy out to 100 yards , obviously. I believe my rifle has the Ballard rifling and not the Micro-Groove. With the lower velocity, I think the cast bullets will shoot ok and not require a gas check.
Am I off base here? Should I maybe stick with a jacketed bullet like a Speer 400gr FPSP and forget the lead bullet idea all together?

[YYC338]

Originally Posted by 7mm08

So, I was playing with the idea of loading some 405 gr Cactus Plains bullets as bear protection to use in my 45-70 Marlin Guide Gun. My recipe would be a 405 gr bullet over 37 gr of IMR 4198. This keeps velocity around 1500 fps from my 18 1/2 inch barrel.
My concern is...will the cast bullets shoot accurately? I wont be looking for accuracy out to 100 yards , obviously. I believe my rifle has the Ballard rifling and not the Micro-Groove. With the lower velocity, I think the cast bullets will shoot ok and not require a gas check.
Am I off base here? Should I maybe stick with a jacketed bullet like a Speer 400gr FPSP and forget the lead bullet idea all together?

If you're planning on using cast bullets you should slug your barrel and then purchase bullets .001 - .002 larger than what your barrel measures. IE. if your barrel is .457 you'd want .459 bullets for the best accuracy. Most manufacturers make .458, .459 & .460 cast bullets for the 45-70.

Also if your planning on loading for velocity at 1500fps or faster you'd want to consider a gas check design (small copper cup on back of bullet). This will greatly reduce barrel leading and help accuracy. Also make sure you clean your barrel extremely well of all copper deposits before using lead for the same reasons.

Do you know the brinell hardness of the bullets you're using? Hard cast (19-22) bullets can withstand velocities approaching 1900-2000fps in 405gr config and will out penetrate anything else you've likely used. Softer lead is probably approaching it's upper limit at 1500fps to get good performance.

I'm currently using 450gr Montana bullets at velocities in the high 1600's with excellent accuracy (1.5" @ 100) with virtually zero leading in the barrel (Marlin 1895SS)

These observations are generalizations of course.

[Coiloil37]

All I shoot in my guide gun are cast and accuracy is good to great depending if I'm using a scope or not. I've got gas checked 390's for hunting, non gas checked 350's for plinking and some 450's for bear protection.
Just get all the copper out of your barrel when you switch over.




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[7mm08]

Originally Posted by YYC338

If you're planning on using cast bullets you should slug your barrel and then purchase bullets .001 - .002 larger than what your barrel measures. IE. if your barrel is .457 you'd want .459 bullets for the best accuracy. Most manufacturers make .458, .459 & .460 cast bullets for the 45-70.

Also if your planning on loading for velocity at 1500fps or faster you'd want to consider a gas check design (small copper cup on back of bullet). This will greatly reduce barrel leading and help accuracy. Also make sure you clean your barrel extremely well of all copper deposits before using lead for the same reasons.

Do you know the brinell hardness of the bullets you're using? Hard cast (19-22) bullets can withstand velocities approaching 1900-2000fps in 405gr config and will out penetrate anything else you've likely used. Softer lead is probably approaching it's upper limit at 1500fps to get good performance.

I'm currently using 450gr Montana bullets at velocities in the high 1600's with excellent accuracy (1.5" @ 100) with virtually zero leading in the barrel (Marlin 1895SS)

These observations are generalizations of course.

Thanks for the quick response. I will check out the Montana bullets. My hardness tester puts the Cactus Plains bullets at a solid 17 BRNL

[qwert]

Has anyone tried soft or hard cast 45/70 boolits that have been powder coated?

Better expansion is reported with powder coated soft cast, than is typical with lubed hard cast.

I have had VERY good results in pistols and smaller <339 caliber rifles.
I used gas checked in the rifles, but others report good results without a gas check as long as the base is fully coated.

Good Luck, YMMV.

[dogslayer403]

405g hardcast and imr 3031 shoot great in my 1895g

[prarie_boy1]

Originally Posted by dogslayer403

405g hardcast and imr 3031 shoot great in my 1895g

X2 when I had my guide gun. With a Skinner sight and that load I couldn't believe how accurate that combination was.

[muirsy]

Originally Posted by dogslayer403

405g hardcast and imr 3031 shoot great in my 1895g

Just took the plunge down the reloading rabbit hole and started with my 1895 SBL - 405 grain and IRM 3031 as well. Picked up a Lee Classic Loader and just waiting for those bullets to arrive before I get going. Their dipper loads it at 46 grains I think - what about yours?

Cheers!

J

[dogslayer403]

Originally Posted by muirsy

Just took the plunge down the reloading rabbit hole and started with my 1895 SBL - 405 grain and IRM 3031 as well. Picked up a Lee Classic Loader and just waiting for those bullets to arrive before I get going. Their dipper loads it at 46 grains I think - what about yours?

Cheers!

J

Im running 48g i tested from 46g to 51g and found my best accuracy at 48g

[muirsy]

Originally Posted by dogslayer403

Im running 48g i tested from 46g to 51g and found my best accuracy at 48g

Nice! I'll get myself a powder scale at some stage and start getting more technical. Do you know what velocity you're getting at 48 grains?

Never imagine I'd give 2 craps about reloading until I got my 45/70 haha - it's like my Henry 22 but only more fun and able to take big game!

[Rio56]

for bear protection and if by chance you wanna skip the reloading ,try some factory HSM 430 grain at 1780 fps... just make sure your fillings are secure ...lol

[muirsy]

Originally Posted by Rio56

for bear protection and if by chance you wanna skip the reloading ,try some factory HSM 430 grain at 1780 fps... just make sure your fillings are secure ...lol

The buddy I bought my rifle from gave mye a box of HSM bear load - it's awesome and sucks at the same time haha. Saved half about 10 rounds for bear protection during now season.

[Rio56]

Originally Posted by muirsy

The buddy I bought my rifle from gave mye a box of HSM bear load - it's awesome and sucks at the same time haha. Saved half about 10 rounds for bear protection during now season.

yup they suck recoil wise but man nothing can stop them .. I've found the 300 gr TSX fn in the Barnes Vor-tx factory load to penetrate very well on bears ... with a lot less black eyes ...lol

[dogslayer403]

Originally Posted by muirsy

Nice! I'll get myself a powder scale at some stage and start getting more technical. Do you know what velocity you're getting at 48 grains?

Never imagine I'd give 2 craps about reloading until I got my 45/70 haha - it's like my Henry 22 but only more fun and able to take big game!

Never did chrony mine. Welcome to the obsession reloading will get a hold on you lol you never go back enjoy

[dogslayer403]

Originally Posted by muirsy

The buddy I bought my rifle from gave mye a box of HSM bear load - it's awesome and sucks at the same time haha. Saved half about 10 rounds for bear protection during now season.

You should try the garret 540g hammerheads I have lol

[mgvande]

The cast will be fine

[Dean2]

If the recoil is hard on you you are loading it way too hot. The hole is what kills, not the speed of the bullet. A 405 cast will be very accurate and will go clean thorough a bear front to back at 1500 fps. Also, becasue the recoil is pretty mild your recovery time for a second shot is way faster.

As you can see from the target, nothing wrong with the accuracy of cast at 100 yards. That is a three shot group even though it only looks like two. The left hole actually has two rounds in it. This is a Marlin 1895 with 22" barrel with a 1x5x20 Leupold VX3 on it. Barrel has has been magnaported. I am just starting to work up loads for my Skinner sighted guide gun but don't have any pictures of groups from it yet.



Same gun shooting 350 grain Round nose Hornady at 100 yards. 1st shot 2" above bull, group of 3 after scope cranked up 4 clicks. Not much difference accuracy wise.

[muirsy]

Originally Posted by Dean2

If the recoil is hard on you you are loading it way too hot. The hole is what kills, not the speed of the bullet. A 405 cast will be very accurate and will go clean thorough a bear front to back at 1500 fps. Also, becasue the recoil is pretty mild your recovery time for a second shot is way faster.

I agree. I had a bunch of different factory ammo when I got my 1895 and by far the most pleasant to shoot was the Remington Core Lokt 405 grain. Pretty sure they're right around that velocity.

Hoping my loads end up around the same!

[^v^Tinda wolf^v^]

I read long ago if you are switching to cast to scrub the copper from your barrel well for better accuracy. Maybe it's just the heavy recoil but I run the HSM bear load when needed for that extra punch and it isn't as accurate in my SBL as a copper jacket. My marlin likes hornady the best, it is very accurate and besides that I have never had one jam my loading ramp like the flat nosed cast such as the bear load which could be life or death in one situation or another. With ghost ring sights in the prone position I'm getting a 1/2 average at 100 yards with hornady and through testing on 3/4 aluminum plate I'm punching a clean hole through it at 50 yards which makes me question if cast is even needed

The bullet that had the least amount of penetration during my testing at 50 yards was the core lock 405 grain which left a dimple in the plate similar to a 9mm. Needless to say I ran through the hole box on gophers because it was junk from my perspective.

[YYC338]

Originally Posted by muirsy

I agree. I had a bunch of different factory ammo when I got my 1895 and by far the most pleasant to shoot was the Remington Core Lokt 405 grain. Pretty sure they're right around that velocity.

Hoping my loads end up around the same!

Remington factory loads are closer to 1250fps. The reason for this is that there are still turn of the century trapdoor rifles out there and the factory ammo has to be loaded to safe level for those rifles. Manufacturers will label their loads if they are designed for modern/stronger actions.

When you look at published reload data for the 45-70 you will see 3 levels of loads:
1. Vintage trapdoor rifles
2. Modern lever rifles (Marlins built after 1975 and others)
3. Ruger No.1 and other modern single shot rifles

[45-70 Hunter]

I'm shooting a 22" barrel 1895 with a skinner express sight. Accuracy is within 1" groups at 100yds when I do my part - Attached photo is of a 5 shot group at 75yrds with my current handload. When developing a load for my 1895 I decided on the use of 405gr hardcast boolits and set out the criteria of:
-An accurate and effective hunting load
-Sufficient penetration and stopping power for a bear
-Manageable recoil for fast follow up shots

I did not want to have a "bear" load and a "hunting" load, just wanted one load for the rifle. IMR4198 is the powder I use as it is a great match for the 45-70 when shooting cast. I found a good accuracy node for my barrel in the 1550-1600 fps range and I did push up to near max loads into another good accuracy range. The hotter loads were past a manageable recoil "for fast followup shots". Not being recoil sensitive I didn't find the hot loads to be unmanageable on the recoil front, though some of my friends did find that - the level of recoil that is manageable for my requirements was to be able to make consecutive quick followup shots if necessary. Leading in the barrel required cleaning after every 5 rounds in the near max loads. I chose the more reasonable load. A heavy hardcast bullet traveling at 1500+fps is very effective medicine - penetration with hardcast exceeds most people's expectations.

Bullet Barn is a great source for cast lead and advice.

The load I'm running may not have the same accuracy in your guide gun, tailor your load to your barrel.

405gr RNFP SLG BB (bulletbarn) seated to the crimp groove- Some barrels like their RNFP TLG BBbetter
Starline Brass
CCI 200 primers
36gr IMR4198 (this batch of powder)
Approx 1550fps+ (need a new chronograph to confirm)

Starting at 32gr IM4198 will closely approximate the Remington 405gr JSP factory load. Move up in 0.5gr intervals till your groups tighten up and fine tune from there - max load is 40.5gr to 42gr depending on your book/source. I started getting case elongation around 40gr of powder IN MY RIFLE.

[colroggal]

Two things:

1 -Ballard rifling loves cast bullets but microgroove rifle barrels can shoot them just as well - just more finicky about what they like.

2 -'We have to stop chasing big velocity numbers with the marlins. Multiple tests have shown that a heavy flat nose bullet actually penetrates better at moderate velocity than at high velocity. 400g at 1600 fps. 500g at 1500 fps. Good enough for government work.

Mammals are bags of mostly water. Water cannot be compressed and can only be moved out of the way so fast. Think belly flop off the edge of the pool vs belly flop of the Brooklyn Bridge. One is going to hurt the bullet a heck of a lot more than the water.

My hunting load has been those same 390g gas check bullets (from bullet barn) over a moderate charge of h4198 and they aren't going more than 1600-1650 fps if that.

Remember a whole shwack of Buffalo were killed with .458 bullets motivated by black powder back in the day. Very few of those slugs left the barrels any faster than 1300 fps.

Colin

[Dean2]

45-70 Hunter and Colroggal

Great write ups both of you. Good to see a few other guys understand BIG BORE shooting and how it really works. Keep up the good work!

[muirsy]

Originally Posted by Dean2

45-70 Hunter and Colroggal

Great write ups both of you. Good to see a few other guys understand BIG BORE shooting and how it really works. Keep up the good work!

I'll 'ditto' that

Thanks for the great replies, just what a big bore newbie like myself was looking for

J

[Slash8]

I use 425 gr hard cast gas checks in my GG with 38 gr of IMR 3031. Pushes them out at around 1350 fps. I can shoot an inch to an inch and a half at 100 meters. No shoulder punishment to speak of and I'm sure that if I had to draw down on a charging moose it would bore a hole through it from ear lobe to vent no problem. Like a hot knife through buttah

[Kako]

Originally Posted by dogslayer403

Im running 48g i tested from 46g to 51g and found my best accuracy at 48g

Is this gas checked?

I am trying to find a load for IMR4198. Best yet is 31 gr and 35gr.

I am testing both out again using a scope.

[1100winger]

Played with cast bullets in both a long time ago, gas checked, paper patched, plain base, high (relatively)velocity, low velocity.
Wheel weights, pure antimony, pure lead, and a number of different alloys. We shot for accuracy and then speed.
I now have a Chiappa 1886 - and it likes Hornady factory.

But if I were to start playing with lead again, I would seriously consider a soft lead bullet and low velocities (1200 fps) It was the most accurate of all that we tested, and would blow straight through a 18" fir. 400-500 gr bullets will drop anything you want.
The highest velocities were achieved with paper patched bullets.