Locomotives powered by Hydrogen?

[densa44]

I'm not trying to start trouble, just asking. How do these engines work? Is it the same technology as steam engines, diesel engines, or something new?

Thanks.

[Stinky Buffalo]

Good question.

If I had to guess:

I suppose that there’s a couple of ways to do it - one is to use hydrogen as a fuel in an ICE engine.

Another way is to use a fuel cell to convert it to electricity by combining it with ambient oxygen to create the electrical current and provide float charge to onboard batteries.

I believe that many locomotives are electrically driven (diesel powers the generators) so the second option may be the most likely…

[KGB]

And in case of a railroad crash- do we get a thermo nuclear bomb going off? Asking for a friend…

[Au revoir, Gopher]

Originally Posted by densa44

I'm not trying to start trouble, just asking. How do these engines work? Is it the same technology as steam engines, diesel engines, or something new?

Thanks.

Here are two examples of hydrogen fuel cells
https://www.cbc.ca/news/science/hydr...city-1.6888891
https://www.trains.com/trn/news-revi...t-revenue-run/

Originally Posted by KGB

And in case of a railroad crash- do we get a thermo nuclear bomb going off? Asking for a friend…

Absolutely! That's why it's called a "hydrogen bomb"

ARG

[SamSteele]

Had an opportunity to see one up close. They fuel up with hydrogen at specific points and are a hydrogen/electric motor. In essence the hydrogen replaces the diesel (with engine mods obviously).

SS


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Sundog57]

I would expect that given that most locomotives use electric traction engines, that the choice would be to use a hydrogen fuel cell that uses a catalyst to generate electricity from H2 gas.
However whereas the examples cited are for switching engines, the use of H2 as a long haul fuel is problematic because of the volume constraints imposed by hydrogen - H2 contains about 130 MJ/kg vs diesel at 45MJ/kg but a kg of diesel fills approx 1,3 litres whereas a kg of compressed H2 at 700 bar occupies 23 litres. So to put this in context the amount of space required to hold the equivalent heat value of one litre of diesel is about 7.5 litres - it takes a lot of space to transport enough hydrogen to run anything for any amount of time (this was the same problem with conversions to LNG which occupies about 4x the space of diesel)

For ease of transport it is likely that any large H2 fueled engines will use liquid ammonia as a source of fuel as it is much easier to transport and handle - the hydrogen would be split off using a catalyst once again though there is still a volume problem as the heat content of ammonia is quite low.

On trains the issue is that any space used to carry fuel is space that cannot be used to generate revenue. Once again a reason that the whole LNG thing failed to gain any traction. On the LNG trains they were forced to give up a revenue slot to fit in a fuel car slot. In spite of a number of significant advantages gained by using LNG it was abandoned.

[Grizzly Adams1]

So to put this in context the amount of space required to hold the equivalent heat value of one litre of diesel is about 7.5 litres - it takes a lot of space to transport enough hydrogen to run anything for any amount of time (this was the same problem with conversions to LNG which occupies about 4x the space of diesel)

That is the crux of the argument when it comes to hydrogen as a fuel.

[Stinky Buffalo]

Originally Posted by KGB

And in case of a railroad crash- do we get a thermo nuclear bomb going off? Asking for a friend…

lol! It doesn’t work that way!

[barsik]

apart from the corrupt and manipulative politicians, media, and opportunists there isn't anything wrong with using gasoline, diesel, or natural gas as a fuel source. best bang for the buck if you pardon the pun. the only other energy we need is electricity, generated as efficiently and inexpensively as possible, thank you very much.

[densa44]

Lets go back to this suggestion. I really don't care if the pencil neck guys worry about one or two extra cars in a train that stretches for a mile or more. Where does NH3 come from? Natural gas?

Was LNG burned in an internal combustion engine or was it used to generate electricity?

I knew that you guys would know a lot about this.

[calgarychef]

Might be a good idea if it’s feasible. Although rail transport is efficient, the engines theyuse are highly inefficient. They never shut down and have zero emissions standards. Where We can do better we should, this a good place to put some effort.

[Selkirk]

.
.

That's ☝ Not fantasy ... the CPKC already has three (3) Up & Running ❗

Coming to a rail-line near you 👉 https://financialpost.com/news/local...f-1de27c864722

In the end ... it was just a matter of Time.

Selkirk

[Trochu]

Politicians: Lets spend millions, maybe hundreds of millions, researching clean energy, implement trials, then, if one works borderline better than what we already have, spend another couple hundred million implementing it.

Me: How about we just shut the lights off in office buildings at night?


Politicians:

[Sundog57]

Originally Posted by densa44

Lets go back to this suggestion. I really don't care if the pencil neck guys worry about one or two extra cars in a train that stretches for a mile or more. Where does NH3 come from? Natural gas?

Was LNG burned in an internal combustion engine or was it used to generate electricity?

I knew that you guys would know a lot about this.

The train that was used as an LNG test bed had an EMD645s with conversion kit installed from an outfit in Seattle called Energy Conversions Inc (ECI) if memory serves me correctly - they may not be in business anymore. The locomotives ran from Edmonton to Fort Mac. They had to tow an LNG tank car which displaced a revenue car. There was a huge back order of LNG tank cars at the time so CN borrowed or rented one from another railway co. The LNG tanks were primarily produced by Chart Industries who would buy regular steel tank cars and then cut the end of and insert a double wall, evacuated stainless steel "thermos bottle" into the tank. LNG cannot be kept liquid by pressure so it must be stored/transported at -163C.
The issue with losing a revenue slot(s) was that on say a trans continental container train they would lose several and perhaps $5000 per direction per slot for double stacks. Multiply that by 52 weeks and the financial advantage to using LNG disappeared pretty quickly.
There was also the whole fuel handling issue. As above LNG is stored at -163C if you spill it on mild steel, the steel breaks. If you spill it on yourself well... The fact that it can't be held liquid by pressure alone means that fuel lines have to be purged with nitrogen after every fuelling or the fuel pipes break.
On top of all of that the regulatory environment for anything to do with LNG is mind boggling. Transport Canada and the USCG wanted to treat any fuelling situation the same as discharging and LNG tanker with extra security and all the rest of that HooHah. (this in spite of the fact that LNG in the form of a pool fire isn't really explosive because it is so active that it's hard to keep it lit https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/1106186 )
LNG would have been a game changer but the move to LNG came at the same time that the price of diesel dropped to historical lows and the potential users couldn't see the point.

If they elect to use liquid ammonia as fuel, there are two possibilities. It can be burned directly in an internal combustion engine, a number of large engine companies, MAN and Wartsila for example, are well down the path. It can also be used as a relatively easy way to transport hydrogen which is then stripped off using a catalyst and used directly either in an internal combustion engine or in a fuel cell.
The expectation is that ammonia will be produced using wind power. There are a number of very large projects on the East Coast that are pursuing this option.

I fully expect hydrogen will have similar technical challenges and although companies are embarking on test programs, they will have to have a significant incentive to make the change.