308 win heavy loads

[Flight01]

Anyone ever shoot 200 or 220 grain flat or round nose? I see hornady offers 220grain round nose in the international line. My dad was talking about hunting with 220 soft points back in the 70’s with his rem 700 in 308win. I was thinking of giving it a whirl just to see. They are heavy but not that much longer due to design. Any experience with stabilizing this bullet? Specifically 220 Sierra round nose. I’ll be trying it and I’ll report here with accuracy, velocity and I’ll try to capture a few at 25 yards and 100 yards to see expansion if I were to make this my black bear round.
Again any real world experience? Even info in the 30-06 is welcome.
I know bullet construction and technology has improved but it’s just something I want to try. I’m foreseeing 30-30 trajectories but at higher energy

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Flight01

Anyone ever shoot 200 or 220 grain flat or round nose? I see hornady offers 220grain round nose in the international line. My dad was talking about hunting with 220 soft points back in the 70’s with his rem 700 in 308win. I was thinking of giving it a whirl just to see. They are heavy but not that much longer due to design. Any experience with stabilizing this bullet? Specifically 220 Sierra round nose. I’ll be trying it and I’ll report here with accuracy, velocity and I’ll try to capture a few at 25 yards and 100 yards to see expansion if I were to make this my black bear round.
Again any real world experience? Even info in the 30-06 is welcome.
I know bullet construction and technology has improved but it’s just something I want to try. I’m foreseeing 30-30 trajectories but at higher energy

I use 220RN in my 30-06. With a .308 Win. you should be able to get a MV of between 25-2600 fps with Ramshot Hunter or H 4350. It makes for a great round with the right rifle and a 24 in. Bbl

[Flight01]

My 308 is a 22” barrel and with reduced powder capacity compared to the ‘06 I’ll be seating near max OAL and getting 2300 FPS. That’s my goal anyway .
I’m thinking accuracy will be fine but will have to do some expansion tests at 100 yards to make sure I’m keeping velocity high enough to expand somewhat.
Any on game experience?

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by Salavee

I use 220RN in my 30-06. With a .308 Win. you should be able to get a MV of between 25-2600 fps with Ramshot Hunter or H 4350. It makes for a great round with the right rifle and a 24 in. Bbl

Sounds a bit hot. Lee data doesn't hit 2400 with 220 or 225 gr. and Hornady data for 200 and 208 is a bit under 2600 and 2500 respectively.

I'd use a 220 RN for heavy game. The .308 rifles I believe all have a fairly fast twist.

Would carry energy a bit better than the lighter 170 gr. bullet from a 30-30.

[obsessed1]

Both my 308s have a 1:12. They don't stabilize a 200+ bullet well..a 1:10 like my brothers 783 would work well I'd imagine. Like you said. Slow with somewhat rainbow trajectory ( thinking 16-20" barrel) but should hit pretty hard and penetrate well.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Tactical Lever

Sounds a bit hot. Lee data doesn't hit 2400 with 220 or 225 gr. and Hornady data for 200 and 208 is a bit under 2600 and 2500 respectively.

I'd use a 220 RN for heavy game. The .308 rifles I believe all have a fairly fast twist.

Would carry energy a bit better than the lighter 170 gr. bullet from a 30-30.

Yes it is ... VERY hot. Those were 30-06/220 loads. Sorry. I better learn to edit before posting.

[Dick284]

Round nose 220’s require a 1 in 10 twist.
Stubby or round nose 200’s should run fine in a 1 in 12 twist tho.

[Flight01]

I believe this rem 673 is a 1:10.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Yes it is ... VERY hot. Those were 30-06/220 loads. Sorry. I better learn to edit before posting.

Lol! Well you wouldn't be the first! I responded to a hunting post several years back, and I was pretty darn sure, because the other option seemed silly. As soon as I posted it, I thought that I had better make sure. Got back a few minutes later to correct myself, and someone had already taken me to task for it!

[Dean2]

There is no advantage to heavy for calibre bullets. On top of that, round nose do not buck brush any better than spire points, the loss of launch velocity and the effect on velocity of the RN means trajectory, wind deflection, expansion and possibly penetration etc are all negatively impacted. A 200 or 220 will not kill game any better than a 165 or 180 grain. I don't see the point in making a 200 yard gun out of something that is entirely competent to 800 yards with the right bullets. If you want to shoot 220 grain bullets I would move up to the 338-06 because even the 338 Federal is better off with 200 grain or lighter bullets and performs best with 180s. Other option is the 35 Whelen. In my view, the only reason for RN bullets today is for use in tubular magazines or to get a wider metplat for shooting dangerous game at 50 yards or less.

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by Dean2

There is no advantage to heavy for calibre bullets. On top of that, round nose do not buck brush any better than spire points, the loss of launch velocity and the effect on velocity of the RN means trajectory, wind deflection, expansion and possibly penetration etc are all negatively impacted. A 200 or 220 will not kill game any better than a 165 or 180 grain. I don't see the point in making a 200 yard gun out of something that is entirely competent to 800 yards with the right bullets. If you want to shoot 220 grain bullets I would move up to the 338-06 because even the 338 Federal is better off with 200 grain or lighter bullets and performs best with 180s. Other option is the 35 Whelen. In my view, the only reason for RN bullets today is for use in tubular magazines or to get a wider metplat for shooting dangerous game at 50 yards or less.

I agree ^^ .308 = ~165gr. bullet period, anything else is an exercise in futility. IMHO

[Flight01]

Originally Posted by Dean2

There is no advantage to heavy for calibre bullets. On top of that, round nose do not buck brush any better than spire points, the loss of launch velocity and the effect on velocity of the RN means trajectory, wind deflection, expansion and possibly penetration etc are all negatively impacted. A 200 or 220 will not kill game any better than a 165 or 180 grain. I don't see the point in making a 200 yard gun out of something that is entirely competent to 800 yards with the right bullets. If you want to shoot 220 grain bullets I would move up to the 338-06 because even the 338 Federal is better off with 200 grain or lighter bullets and performs best with 180s. Other option is the 35 Whelen. In my view, the only reason for RN bullets today is for use in tubular magazines or to get a wider metplat for shooting dangerous game at 50 yards or less.

It’s funny you have this train of thought too . I’ve actually talked with Bob Jury about boring out this gun to 338 federal. But I also own a 338RCM too.
The concept is I guess to try it out. I am looking at short range in particular. A 100 yard thumper, just thinking the increased frontal area of the blunt bullet should impart decent energy while still penetrating. I will test it of course before hunting with it.

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Flight01

It’s funny you have this train of thought too . I’ve actually talked with Bob Jury about boring out this gun to 338 federal. But I also own a 338RCM too.
The concept is I guess to try it out. I am looking at short range in particular. A 100 yard thumper, just thinking the increased frontal area of the blunt bullet should impart decent energy while still penetrating. I will test it of course before hunting with it.

I owned a 338 Federal in a LH Tikka for a few years becasue I thought it sounded like a neat idea. I used it on some game animals but to me it really was no improvement over the 308 and it was not near as good as the 338-06. Just not quite enough case capacity to move heavier bullets. Over the years I have come to the opinion that in smaller to mid bore rifles for all round use I want a launch speed of 2700-2900 fps or better. That seems to be the sweet spot for trajectory, penetration, bullet performance etc. I will adjust bullet weight to get to the 2700 launch speed or move up in cartridge capacity. Let us know how you make out.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Dean2

There is no advantage to heavy for calibre bullets. On top of that, round nose do not buck brush any better than spire points, the loss of launch velocity and the effect on velocity of the RN means trajectory, wind deflection, expansion and possibly penetration etc are all negatively impacted. A 200 or 220 will not kill game any better than a 165 or 180 grain. I don't see the point in making a 200 yard gun out of something that is entirely competent to 800 yards with the right bullets. If you want to shoot 220 grain bullets I would move up to the 338-06 because even the 338 Federal is better off with 200 grain or lighter bullets and performs best with 180s. Other option is the 35 Whelen. In my view, the only reason for RN bullets today is for use in tubular magazines or to get a wider metplat for shooting dangerous game at 50 yards or less.

At least, that's one opinion. I have a cple of .338-06, two .35Whelen Ai's and two 9.3x62's.as well as a short barreled 30-06. Terminal performance overlaps between all of them depending on the bullet used, but the 30-06 /220 RN seems to have some magic involved when it comes short range hunting and terminal performance. I'm not interested in 800 yd performance with any cartridge but I wouldn't short sell the heavy for caliber bullets in any
hunting cartridge that will handle them well. Just another opinion.

[Flight01]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

I agree ^^ .308 = ~165gr. bullet period, anything else is an exercise in futility. IMHO

“ Don’t bring me down .....Bruce!”

Haha. Yes you are correct . I currently shoot 165 nosler partition. This gun has taken lots of game with 165 Sierra game kings too. Big 50” bull moose at 175 yards , my first WT buck at 255 yards...I guess I just want to try something different.

[Dean2]

If you want a 100 to 200 yard short range thumper, get a 45-70. Load it to 1600-1800 FPS with 350 grain Hornady RN or 405 grain Cast and now you have a real thumper, not a baby thumper. Anyone who has read many of my posts knows I am a BIG fan of the 45-70.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Dean2

If you want a 100 to 200 yard short range thumper, get a 45-70. Load it to 1600-1800 FPS with 350 grain Hornady RN or 405 grain Cast and now you have a real thumper, not a baby thumper. Anyone who has read many of my posts knows I am a BIG fan of the 45-70.

Valid Point! It appears the 45-70 likes heavy for caliber bullets as well. Every cartridge has a fan club somewhere.

[Salavee]

https://www.foundryoutdoors.com/blog...ics-info-chart

[Dean2]

Originally Posted by Salavee

https://www.foundryoutdoors.com/blog...ics-info-chart

True, but I have always said energy is not what kills, never has been. It is a short cut some gun writers developed that has never worked. That big hole the 45-70 makes and the fact it will go length wise through a moose or bear just about every time is what kills. Same reason a soft point 308 kills WAY better than the same weight FMJ, even though both have exactly the same energy. I have shot a lot of black bears over the years, the 45-70 knocked them down on hte spot WAY better than any 308 or even 300 Win mag ever did, and I tried pretty much every caliber from 25 to 460 Bee and 12 gauge slugs on Black bear. The 45-70 was my go to for that kind of work.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Dean2

True, but I have always said energy is not what kills, never has been. It is a short cut some gun writers developed that has never worked. That big hole the 45-70 makes and the fact it will go length wise through a moose or bear just about every time is what kills. Same reason a soft point 308 kills WAY better than the same weight FMJ, even though both have exactly the same energy. I have shot a lot of black bears over the years, the 45-70 knocked them down on hte spot WAY better than any 308 or even 300 Win mag ever did, and I tried pretty much every caliber from 25 to 460 Bee and 12 gauge slugs on Black bear. The 45-70 was my go to for that kind of work.

/

That's all good Dean. Those are your experiences, Others vary. Personally, I am an energy, SD and momentum freak as I have never been disappointed by that trio. Whatever is in second place to those three seems to be a long ways behind from my perspective.

[Dean2]

Salavee


You have been at this probably as long as I have so I know I am not going to change your mind.

For others following this, if energy made a difference then how does a knife, arrow or spear kill, they have almost no energy. They do have a big hole, penetration and blood loss as the common denominator. That is what Salavee calls second place and it is what I call first place when evaluating the ability of something to kill. Heck, even a old black powder muzzle loaders kill very well and most don't even produce 800 ft/lbs of energy, especially at 100 yards. You guys will have to decide for yourselves which construct makes more sense to you.

[Salavee]

Thanks for that. For some reason I have never compared a Spear to a Bullet when it comes to terminal performance but I hear that is not a good comparison. Maybe someday I'll learn why.

[obsessed1]

In my experience both work..
Speed and SD and energy kill
Large wound channels kill

Speed and energy tend to pulverize good eating meat while holes generally just put a hole. When table fare is on the docket it's big holes for me

I have killed enough critters in the last 20 years with everything from fast magnums to bow and arrow. Most everything is capable as a killer. Dead is dead for me how much meat is lost is a factor

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by obsessed1

In my experience both work..
Speed and SD and energy kill
Large wound channels kill

Speed and energy tend to pulverize good eating meat while holes generally just put a hole. When table fare is on the docket it's big holes for me

I have killed enough critters in the last 20 years with everything from fast magnums to bow and arrow. Most everything is capable as a killer. Dead is dead for me how much meat is lost is a factor

How about all the above combined ?.. larger caliber, sufficient speed & energy, and SD .I learned over the last 65 yrs of Hunting and shooting just about every cartridge commonly available, and some not so common. Never experienced any unacceptable meat ruined except with the super fast whiz-bangs and poor bullets or shot placement. You're right, most every cartridge or arrow, or spear, will kill something sometimes - and dead is dead, if those are the most important factors . With correct shot placement being a gimmee in all cases... shoot the largest caliber you can comfortably handle, with a large for caliber quality bullet at a reasonable velocity at an acceptable range and you won't ever have an issue. That's what I've gleaned over time and quite a few animals, so I'll stick with it.

[colroggal]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Valid Point! It appears the 45-70 likes heavy for caliber bullets as well. Every cartridge has a fan club somewhere.

400 grains is not heavy for calibre in a 45-70. That's like saying 150 grains is heavy for calibre in a. 308 win.

The reason big, fat moderate velocity slugs penetrate so well is because water doesn't compress. There is a proven cut off point in velocity increase where wide meplat bullets begin to lose their ability to penetrate.

At the right velocity you get massive penetration and a big hole with a long temporary wound cavity. Big holes equal big blood loss.

Belly flop off the side of a pool, then do the same off the high board. Same concept.

Colin

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by colroggal

400 grains is not heavy for calibre in a 45-70. That's like saying 150 grains is heavy for calibre in a. 308 win.

The reason big, fat moderate velocity slugs penetrate so well is because water doesn't compress. There is a proven cut off point in velocity increase where wide meplat bullets begin to lose their ability to penetrate.

At the right velocity you get massive penetration and a big hole with a long temporary wound cavity. Big holes equal big blood loss.

Belly flop off the side of a pool, then do the same off the high board. Same concept.

Colin

I've heard those explanations and examples many times before and I certainly don't disagree. Bigger is better overall, but I wonder why more hunters aren't using a 45/70 with a big 500 grainer. It sounds wonderful, but I don't think it's very practical for most shooters and hunting situations around these parts... but, you've proven your point except ..what bullet weight do you consider heavy for cal in the 45/70 ?. I think the heaviest is 500 gr.

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by Salavee

I've heard those explanations and examples many times before and I certainly don't disagree. Bigger is better overall, but I wonder why more hunters aren't using a 45/70 with a big 500 grainer. It sounds wonderful, but I don't think it's very practical for most shooters and hunting situations around these parts... but, you've proven your point except ..what bullet weight do you consider heavy for cal in the 45/70 ?. I think the heaviest is 500 gr.

You can get 550's for .458, but likely 500 gr. + won't feed from a lever action which makes up the majority of 45-70 guns out there. You can seat them a bit deeper, but crimping will likely be problematic. The heaviest I have heard will feed without issue is the 480 gr. Lyman cast.

And once you get to 500, you start getting pretty slow, and/or heavy recoil. 405, or perhaps slightly heavier to 430 seems to be a good sweet spot. Doesn't seem to have any advantage to going too heavy, and guys that have shot a lot of heavy loads through 1895 Marlins

Per case size, there always seems to be a sweet performance range. To me, it's 165 for .308, 180-200 for 30-06, 140 gr. for 6.5x55, 200 gr. for .35 Rem (warmer than factory handloads), 158 gr. for .357, 240-260 for .44 Mag, 250-300 for .45 Colt (warm handloads), and so on.

[colroggal]

550 grain bullets for 45-70 lever guns are not uncommon. You can get 1500 fps with them. Anything faster than that is detrimental to terminal performance.

Colin

[Tactical Lever]

Originally Posted by colroggal

550 grain bullets for 45-70 lever guns are not uncommon. You can get 1500 fps with them. Anything faster than that is detrimental to terminal performance.

Colin

Have not heard of many people using them. I have a handful of heavy weight bullets, but they weren't meant for a lever gun. The few I shot had to be single loaded.

I would have to check, but I believe that 1500 fps would be a stiff load for a 550. I think it might be slightly detrimental to the shooter going faster, and maybe hard on the gun.