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07-08-2015, 05:36 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 7,861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainTi
Market rate is fair when you are dumping your cows into someones pasture that the owner of said pasture has bought the land, drilled the water wells, dug the dugouts, built and maintained the fences, and paid the yearly taxes on. Do you have any idea on these costs? I do
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Yes, I do.
Next question?
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07-08-2015, 05:36 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,480
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A hotlink to download the Red Queen's (not Orange) and Prenctice's February 24, 2015 ESRD presentation on the recently completed grazing lease rate review.
An explanation of the last government's efforts to get grazing lease rental rates into the 21st century.
http://www.albertagrazinglease.ca/do...GLA_FINAL.pptx
__________________
Alberta Fish and Wildlife Outdoor Recreation Policy -
"to identify very rare, scarce or special forms of fish and wildlife outdoor recreation opportunities and to ensure that access to these opportunities continues to be available to all Albertans."
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07-08-2015, 05:39 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,674
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicecurr
Jamie's got it right. Hillbillyreefer is a greedy parasite, the likes of which all would be much better off without. He can't understand his cows get the grass as a favour and that's it! The public gets everything else from the land. He is the peasant not the king.
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How do you plan to get rid of me nicecurr?
For the record I have 160acres of lease with no O&G on it, and have never denied access to anyone. But attack my neighbors and friends livelihoods and I will comment, if you dont like it feel free to kiss my dog's butt. (A quote from nicecurr in the cougar thread)
I bet your good buddy Jamie protects his exploitation of the publics salmon resources. Another as you call them "parasite" making a living using natural resources. You brag about being a trapper, what exactly entitled you to those animals? Where is OUR cut when the trees on your line were cut and you were compensated. Its my understanding trappers benefit from cash payments from the forestry company or energy company for habitat loss, its not your land why should you be paid?
Let me be clear I have nothing against trapping, trappers, fur or anything related to that business. I fully support the trapping industry, just making an example that my buddy might understand.
__________________
Upset a Lefty, Fly a Drone!
"I find it interesting that some folk will pay to use a range, use a golf course, use a garage bay but think landowners should have to give permission for free. Do these same people think hookers should be treated like landowners?" pitw
Last edited by hillbillyreefer; 07-08-2015 at 05:45 PM.
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07-08-2015, 05:45 PM
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Location: Caroline
Posts: 7,594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3
Yes, I do.
Next question?
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So now that you know the costs associated with upkeep of a lease vs. renting deeded pasture, do you see why rates are different? I'll copy/paste a little info on grazing leases if anybody needs 
__________________
Two reasons you may think CO2 is a pollutant
1.You weren't paying attention in grade 5
2. You're stupid
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07-08-2015, 05:46 PM
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" Alta. grazing leases change despite ranchers’ protest
Posted May. 27th, 1999 by Barbara Duckworth
DRUMHELLER, Alta. – A controversial law that changes grazing lease policy has been approved by the Alberta legislature just before it adjourned for summer.
The Agricultural Dispositions Statutes Amendment Act, Bill 31, will not become law until regulations have been written this summer and fall, said Tom Thurber, who led a government committee to examine grazing lease policies.
“I don’t know if you ever meet everyone’s concerns,” said Thurber.
The government plans to meet with the cattle industry and environmental groups, as well as oil and gas company representatives to develop regulations.
Ranchers complained the bill was passed too quickly, which Thurber denies.
“Everybody has known we were planning it for this spring’s legislation. You have to get something done rather than leave the uncertainty of it,” he said.
Passage of the bill was enough to draw 300 angry leaseholders to this central Alberta town May 19, where the western premiers conference was being held.
More than 60 people on horseback lined the driveway of the Royal Tyrell Museum to demonstrate their dissatisfaction with the bill to Alberta premier Ralph Klein. The premier did not appear and the protesters left.
Alberta’s grazing policy was last revised in 1941. Ranchers said they were satisfied with the current bill and this new legislation has upended them.
The government said it will collect compensation that oil companies pay for operating on leased land and place it in a conservation fund, rather than leaseholders receiving the money directly, as is now the case. This shift was prompted by concerns over leaseholders who receive more in compensation than they pay in rent.
Leaseholders receive about $40 million in yearly compensation and pay about $3.5 million in rent.
The leaseholders suggested a special formula to cap high payments but Thurber said government lawyers found the proposal unworkable.
Other parts of the act are acceptable to many leaseholders.
“Certainly there is no balance in this Bill 31,” said Jack Horner. A federal MP from 1958 to 1979, Horner was not impressed with how the government handled this bill.
He ranches at Pollockville in southeastern Alberta and said he has faced problems with oil companies. He said he has had an oil spill on his leased land and animals had to be destroyed when they were hurt near well sites.
The Alberta Grazing Leaseholders Association met frequently with the government and asked it to leave the compensation provisions alone.
At present, private landowners receive $500 for a right-of-entry fee by an oil company. They also get money for adverse affects.
The government does not charge a $500 entry fee for crown lands, which Horner suggests it should, and then it could leave the compensation alone.
Canadian 88 Energy president Greg Noval said his company does not favor the bill.
By paying compensation to the government, lessees may demand side deals and other agreements to cover adverse effects to the land or animals, he said.
“I’m going to have little deals, side deals and I’m going to be paying double. It’s going to create real chaos and a lot of hard feelings. It’s not necessary.”
A spokesperson for the Canadian Association of Public Landsmen said leaseholders are apt to be less co-operative if they do not receive compensation and may expect extra money above what the government is paid.
“The industry is concerned it will have to pay the same amount of money plus more,” said Glenn Kruyssen of CAPL.
“As far as CAPL sees it, we take full responsibility for actual damages,” he said.
The money traditionally paid to leaseholders for adverse effects should go to the government so all members of the public can benefit. In turn the government can reward leaseholders for keeping land in good condition, he said. "
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Alberta Fish and Wildlife Outdoor Recreation Policy -
"to identify very rare, scarce or special forms of fish and wildlife outdoor recreation opportunities and to ensure that access to these opportunities continues to be available to all Albertans."
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07-08-2015, 05:50 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Lizard Lake, SK.
Posts: 2,196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_e_o
you can't? why?
if you lack the finances perhaps being more financially sound before going into business could be advised. maybe you have stretched yourself too thin and you can't support a whole herd. then selling off some of the herd would probably be a good idea (not that it would decrease the supply).
every single day there's someone saying "i'll buy this for that much" and if the price doesn't allow me to make money "i'm sure you would! hell i'll buy them at that much and mark them up to sell them to people"
you're a supplier do you expect to get paid? think of everyone that sells to you if you offered them a deal that meant they would lose money they'd probably tell you where to put it where the sun doesn't shine.
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If the market is paying $2.00\lb for calves where else can I go to get a higher price.
Would you pay $3.00\lb if market price was $2.00\lb?
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07-08-2015, 05:50 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2009
Location: Communist state
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I know both types of lease holders, those that know it's the crowns land and they are able to use it for their cattle, and those that think it's their land. I have no use for the latter. At all.
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07-08-2015, 06:10 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
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The now Infamous Bill 31, Agricultural Dispositions Statutes Amendment Act, 1999
http://www.assembly.ab.ca/ISYS/LADDA...6_bill-031.pdf
The PCs sure loved to have leverage when asking for political donations and votes.
__________________
Alberta Fish and Wildlife Outdoor Recreation Policy -
"to identify very rare, scarce or special forms of fish and wildlife outdoor recreation opportunities and to ensure that access to these opportunities continues to be available to all Albertans."
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07-08-2015, 06:25 PM
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Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Bazeau County East side
Posts: 4,203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo
" Alta. grazing leases change despite ranchers’ protest
Posted May. 27th, 1999 by Barbara Duckworth
DRUMHELLER, Alta. – A controversial law that changes grazing lease policy has been approved by the Alberta legislature just before it adjourned for summer.
The Agricultural Dispositions Statutes Amendment Act, Bill 31, will not become law until regulations have been written this summer and fall, said Tom Thurber, who led a government committee to examine grazing lease policies.
“I don’t know if you ever meet everyone’s concerns,” said Thurber.
The government plans to meet with the cattle industry and environmental groups, as well as oil and gas company representatives to develop regulations.
Ranchers complained the bill was passed too quickly, which Thurber denies.
“Everybody has known we were planning it for this spring’s legislation. You have to get something done rather than leave the uncertainty of it,” he said.
Passage of the bill was enough to draw 300 angry leaseholders to this central Alberta town May 19, where the western premiers conference was being held.
More than 60 people on horseback lined the driveway of the Royal Tyrell Museum to demonstrate their dissatisfaction with the bill to Alberta premier Ralph Klein. The premier did not appear and the protesters left.
Alberta’s grazing policy was last revised in 1941. Ranchers said they were satisfied with the current bill and this new legislation has upended them.
The government said it will collect compensation that oil companies pay for operating on leased land and place it in a conservation fund, rather than leaseholders receiving the money directly, as is now the case. This shift was prompted by concerns over leaseholders who receive more in compensation than they pay in rent.
Leaseholders receive about $40 million in yearly compensation and pay about $3.5 million in rent.
The leaseholders suggested a special formula to cap high payments but Thurber said government lawyers found the proposal unworkable.
Other parts of the act are acceptable to many leaseholders.
“Certainly there is no balance in this Bill 31,” said Jack Horner. A federal MP from 1958 to 1979, Horner was not impressed with how the government handled this bill.
He ranches at Pollockville in southeastern Alberta and said he has faced problems with oil companies. He said he has had an oil spill on his leased land and animals had to be destroyed when they were hurt near well sites.
The Alberta Grazing Leaseholders Association met frequently with the government and asked it to leave the compensation provisions alone.
At present, private landowners receive $500 for a right-of-entry fee by an oil company. They also get money for adverse affects.
The government does not charge a $500 entry fee for crown lands, which Horner suggests it should, and then it could leave the compensation alone.
Canadian 88 Energy president Greg Noval said his company does not favor the bill.
By paying compensation to the government, lessees may demand side deals and other agreements to cover adverse effects to the land or animals, he said.
“I’m going to have little deals, side deals and I’m going to be paying double. It’s going to create real chaos and a lot of hard feelings. It’s not necessary.”
A spokesperson for the Canadian Association of Public Landsmen said leaseholders are apt to be less co-operative if they do not receive compensation and may expect extra money above what the government is paid.
“The industry is concerned it will have to pay the same amount of money plus more,” said Glenn Kruyssen of CAPL.
“As far as CAPL sees it, we take full responsibility for actual damages,” he said.
The money traditionally paid to leaseholders for adverse effects should go to the government so all members of the public can benefit. In turn the government can reward leaseholders for keeping land in good condition, he said. "
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So has this number gone up since 1999?
Leaseholders receive about $40 million in yearly compensation and pay about $3.5 million in rent.
Talking about the compensation.
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07-08-2015, 06:25 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainTi
So now that you know the costs associated with upkeep of a lease vs. renting deeded pasture, do you see why rates are different? I'll copy/paste a little info on grazing leases if anybody needs |
Please do that.
I Already provided real information on the current rental review. This should answer many of the questions and concerns on the actual rate differentials.
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Another pillar of the PC Castle has crumbled. No longer can the PCs strong-arm Grazing Lease Ranchers for support through threats of enacting legislation. I doubt the Ranching community will be able to stop rental rates and compensation agreements from being updated simply by providing party favours.
__________________
Alberta Fish and Wildlife Outdoor Recreation Policy -
"to identify very rare, scarce or special forms of fish and wildlife outdoor recreation opportunities and to ensure that access to these opportunities continues to be available to all Albertans."
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07-08-2015, 06:30 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hillbillyreefer
How do you plan to get rid of me nicecurr?
For the record I have 160acres of lease with no O&G on it, and have never denied access to anyone. But attack my neighbors and friends livelihoods and I will comment, if you dont like it feel free to kiss my dog's butt. (A quote from nicecurr in the cougar thread)
I bet your good buddy Jamie protects his exploitation of the publics salmon resources. Another as you call them "parasite" making a living using natural resources. You brag about being a trapper, what exactly entitled you to those animals? Where is OUR cut when the trees on your line were cut and you were compensated. Its my understanding trappers benefit from cash payments from the forestry company or energy company for habitat loss, its not your land why should you be paid?
Let me be clear I have nothing against trapping, trappers, fur or anything related to that business. I fully support the trapping industry, just making an example that my buddy might understand.
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Slow down HillBilly.
Don't get caught by this mutt. I doubt he has a single "buddy" on here, let alone Jamie being one.
What are your thoughts on the ACTUAL proposed changes to rental rates? Seems like most changes are fair and flexible.
__________________
Alberta Fish and Wildlife Outdoor Recreation Policy -
"to identify very rare, scarce or special forms of fish and wildlife outdoor recreation opportunities and to ensure that access to these opportunities continues to be available to all Albertans."
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07-08-2015, 06:32 PM
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Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Caroline
Posts: 7,594
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo
Please do that.
I Already provided real information on the current rental review. This should answer many of the questions and concerns on the actual rate differentials.
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Another pillar of the PC Castle has crumbled. No longer can the PCs strong-arm Grazing Lease Ranchers for support through threats of enacting legislation. I doubt the Ranching community will be able to stop rental rates and compensation agreements from being updated simply by providing party favours.
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Job well done with the copy/paste of a bill from 1999. I'm actually offering an explanation of how leases actually work, because judging from this thread, a vast majority have no clue. Explained it close to the start, but think it may have been missed by a few 
__________________
Two reasons you may think CO2 is a pollutant
1.You weren't paying attention in grade 5
2. You're stupid
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07-08-2015, 06:47 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Calgary
Posts: 10,384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nicecurr
Jamie's got it right. Hillbillyreefer is a greedy parasite, the likes of which all would be much better off without. He can't understand his cows get the grass as a favour and that's it! The public gets everything else from the land. He is the peasant not the king.
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Nicecurr. Sorry, I never called anyone a Parasite. In fact, if you read back, I said I would take the same advantages.
These guys are not Parasites, they are just taking advantage of a Loophole. These are good hard working Farmers and Ranchers.
Jamie
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07-08-2015, 06:59 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fish_e_o
the market is not an imaginary person out there. it's you if you choose to sell at a loss well that's your fault if everyone around you is selling at what you deem to be a loss you're doing something wrong.
if oil hit $5 / barrel tomorrow people will simply close the taps the supply would drop and price would go up. the price would continue to go up until companies were willing to open the taps again.
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You seem to fail to understand that a ranch is only able to keep cattle so long while still hoping to make them profitable. So you have 100 cows get 100 calves a year and sell them at weaning. If that is what a normal year for you is and how you operate your ranch how are you supposed to keep those 100 head for an extra year plus your new ones till the price reaches profitability.
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07-08-2015, 07:15 PM
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Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 10,480
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainTi
Job well done with the copy/paste of a bill from 1999. I'm actually offering an explanation of how leases actually work, because judging from this thread, a vast majority have no clue. Explained it close to the start, but think it may have been missed by a few |
I also provided the NEW rental rate review (2015), which helps explains how the NEW leases will work in comparison to the OLD rates.
For those that missed it. The ESRD powerpoint presentation on the 2015 Grazing Lease rate review.
http://www.albertagrazinglease.ca/do...GLA_FINAL.pptx
Maybe this will help too. A 2005 survey of Alberta Grazing lease "Costs- In Kind".
http://www.wsga.ca/pdf/2014/Alberta-...ey-Results.pdf
2005 annualized 20-year investment costs for individual and association held Crown land grazing leases.
Fence built or rebuilt
Range Improvement Building/corral
Road construction
Fire protection
Dugout development Watering system development
Other
$ 5.93 Dollars/AUM/Year
__________________
Alberta Fish and Wildlife Outdoor Recreation Policy -
"to identify very rare, scarce or special forms of fish and wildlife outdoor recreation opportunities and to ensure that access to these opportunities continues to be available to all Albertans."
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07-08-2015, 08:24 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfrog
Sounds like you're still getting your exercise by jumping to conclusions.  |
Redfrog you should revisit some of your favorite anti NDP rants and see if you can find any more instances of jumping to conclusions. Ever hear of the word myopia?
Last edited by drhu22; 07-08-2015 at 08:30 PM.
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07-08-2015, 08:35 PM
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Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 1,271
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[QUOTE=walking buffalo;2888743]Slow down HillBilly.
Don't get caught by this mutt. I doubt he has a single "buddy" on here, let alone Jamie being one.
X2 The "curr" is bouncing around striring up crap all over this Forum. Not worth bothering with. I expect his life expectancy is short until he gets another IP address.
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07-08-2015, 09:10 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3blade
Don't say it!!!! (Provincial parks) That is even worse than the current scam.
I want to rip the stupid political pendulum off the wall and beat politicians with it. Why is it so difficult to NOT f things up?!??!  |
Because by NOT voting WR, you voted ndp
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07-08-2015, 09:14 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 1,524
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mark-edmonton
Nothing but more hot air from the crying PC supporters! Everything is everyone else's fault except the PC party! Their reign is over for the next 4 years!
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Out of the frying pan into the fire.
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07-08-2015, 10:23 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 36
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For the context of this discussion on abuse by grazing lessees "parasite" and "loop hole" are synonymous. My hope is this review will return the public's land to them for their administration and then maybe, just maybe, they may allow some cattle grazing on it. Of course that's only if they don't decide to hoard it for themselves.
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07-08-2015, 10:32 PM
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Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 2,984
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This is hilarious. Who is this guy? Has to be a former member. Any guesses?
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07-08-2015, 10:45 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 36
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What would be hilarious was if this is a legitimate review and the government acted on it's recommendations.
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07-08-2015, 11:06 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 7,861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MountainTi
So now that you know the costs associated with upkeep of a lease vs. renting deeded pasture, do you see why rates are different? I'll copy/paste a little info on grazing leases if anybody needs |
It's interesting that ranchers are interested year over year in renting pasture land at significant higher rates than those who have access to crown grazing leases.
They pay market rate. You have an advantage over your fellow rancher, and the Alberta public loses.
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07-08-2015, 11:08 PM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 7,861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by walking buffalo
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Seeing it already passed, it could be proclaimed tomorrow.
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07-09-2015, 12:28 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Communist Capital of Alberta
Posts: 4,153
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Would someone do me a favour and answer one question with absolute knowledge and not hearsay please?
Is the money being paid to lease holders for loss of use and surface disturbance, or for a percentage of oil/gas revenue?
One sentence or less please, I'm a little slow.
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Social acceptance is NOT effective therapy.
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07-09-2015, 12:43 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Central Alberta
Posts: 7,861
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBintheNorth
Would someone do me a favour and answer one question with absolute knowledge and not hearsay please?
Is the money being paid to lease holders for loss of use and surface disturbance, or for a percentage of oil/gas revenue?
One sentence or less please, I'm a little slow. |
Surface disturbance.
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07-09-2015, 01:00 AM
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Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Communist Capital of Alberta
Posts: 4,153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avb3
Surface disturbance.
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So then why would the government make anything off of the land for 'surface disturbance' if it wasn't being rented?
My point is, this 30+ million everyone seems to think is being left on the table, would be $0 if no one was operating it because there would be no loss of use.
Why wouldn't the 'loss of use' fee be paid directly to the person with the loss of use?
My guess is, the exorbitant fees being paid are based on actual land value and not 'rent/acre' value?
The oil and gas companies should only be paying that to the lease holder, and with the money they'd save they could afford to pay for the higher royalty fees when they get hammered with that one.
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Social acceptance is NOT effective therapy.
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07-09-2015, 02:39 AM
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Gone Hunting
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Between Bodo and a hard place
Posts: 20,168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by drhu22
Redfrog you should revisit some of your favorite anti NDP rants and see if you can find any more instances of jumping to conclusions. Ever hear of the word myopia? |
I may have heard of it, but I don't think I've ever seen it. 
If you have something to say, don't be shy, step up to the mike and speak.
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I'm not lying!!! You are just experiencing it differently. 
It isn't a question of who will allow me, but who will stop me.. Ayn Rand
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07-09-2015, 02:58 AM
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Banned
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Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,090
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Redfrog
I may have heard of it, but I don't think I've ever seen it.
If you have something to say, don't be shy, step up to the mike and speak. |
I just did step up to the mike as you put it. What i'm saying is that you are accusing people of jumping to conclusions, when a you are doing the same thing in other threads. It seems rather short sighted.
Re: "but I don't think I've ever seen it"
Is the irony on purpose or accidental?
If I seem a bit snarky, its because you and some of your friend's attempts ridicule anyone with an opposing viewpoint are getting really boring.
Last edited by drhu22; 07-09-2015 at 03:17 AM.
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07-09-2015, 09:10 AM
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Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CBintheNorth
Would someone do me a favour and answer one question with absolute knowledge and not hearsay please?
Is the money being paid to lease holders for loss of use and surface disturbance, or for a percentage of oil/gas revenue?
One sentence or less please, I'm a little slow. |
Percentage of surface disturbance.
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