Military Resources to Ukraine exceeds aid to Canada's own Military

[Sundancefisher]

Can China influence Canadian politics? Russia has lessons to teach us all.

https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-rus...230008434.html

I give them credit that these plans are long games. They disrupt the countries from within and then pounce.

[big_plinker]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Only problem with the US in WW2 was they took too long to join the fight.

Their 875,000 casualties in those wars suggestions they paid a high price.

Fact is war can jump start an economy. Russia started this… maybe that’s their end game outside of capturing territory and increasing their political influence? I guess when countries see what they have to offer and say no is a fair reason to kill them, at least in Putin’s eyes.
Or Biden's, Trump's, Obama's, the Bush's, the Clintons, etc eyes. You need to do a much better job with your distinctions when it comes to evil people committing evil acts.
But alas.

Some will go to great lengths to support Russia on all these threads. Whether for fun, taking an opposite view for argument sake, brainwashed by Russia, brainwashed from radical conspiracy click bait websites, hating democracy or just hating NATO.
Not a single person has come up the defence of Russia here, so you and your gaslighting bullcrap can feck right off. I find that lying conclusion disgustingly insulting, which I'm pretty sure is the point when you keyboard warriors bring it up. You want to save Ukraine at any cost, get on over there and make the ultimate of sacrifices: God knows they need bodies more than guns at this point. Just leave me and my kids out of it!!
What Russia is doing is wrong, whatever the motivation they have. Just like what America and NATO has done in the middle east, from Libya to Ethiopia to Iraq to Afghanistan to Yugoslavia to Vietnam over the past 60 years is wrong. The same evil, not different like the warmongers among us would like to have us believe.

Irrespective, it makes for interesting debate.

You’ve stated Russia was wrong for attacking. I agree conflicts are complicated.

I don’t see a new world order. The world isn’t flocking to Russia and certainly not China. if China and Russia are making headway on the international, they do so at the expense of American and western influence, and they are making LOTS of headway. Africa is turning into a continent of Chinese and Russian ports, and they are both opening up South AmericaCountries who have sought financial help from either have not benefited. They are not helping for humanitarian reasons. For them it is a win lose they seek. The IMF and China are both two pees in a pod. and as usual, a pointless observation, and you missing the truth in it. So let me ask the question: do you THINK America gives financial aid without some dirty strings attached, in any form or fashion? What's the difference?

If 2 corrupt countries go to war 7000km away, while our own country and its liberty minded citizens get driven into the ground by totalitarian puppets (and their protester trampling, bank account and go fund me seizing goons and lackeys), which world issue do you think DESERVES our attention, and for that matter our hard earned tax money, when it comes to fixing things?
We have much bigger issues closer to home. The state of our armed forces not the least of them.
If Ukraine had been left to its own devices and defence, I think anyone at this point would find it hard to argue that might have been better for the actual Ukrainian people, who are now dying enmasse, and watching their countries untimely destruction in a proxy war? We'll never know. What I DO KNOW, is that we are all getting awfully close to WW3 and nuclear annihilation, and Ukraine is and will still be fubar.

[big_plinker]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

While the US has done some questionable things. It has been a good neighbor compared to Russia. The last war the US had with its northern neighbor was 1812-1814 almost 210 years ago and war with its southern neighbor was 1846-1848, thats 175 years ago. The difference between Russia and American imperialism is that America is just more subtle about it, because they have the money that Russia does not, and thus just finance the blood spilling. But it's bullying all the same, and the blood of the innocent is always the greatest amount to spill.You shore as heck cant say that about Russia. They beat up an internal country or neighbor every decade or 2. I know which country I would want as a neighbor. The USA anytime. The world cant keep allowing bad behavior from Russia and need to stand up now. If they dont, nato will be drawn into a war with Russia and it wont be to far down the line.

And if Russia wins, it sets the wrong precedant for all the wanna be nuclear countries. We get nukes and we too can be bullies. And it will only encourage them that they can take more.

This is so very important people. Staying out of it would be a huge mistake. You may not want war but it can come to you whether you want it or not.

I'm just going to leave this here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit..._regime_change
This one is just Latin America, and none of them ended in a nice way for the natives

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by big_plinker

If 2 corrupt countries go to war 7000km away, while our own country and its liberty minded citizens get driven into the ground by totalitarian puppets (and their protester trampling, bank account and go fund me seizing goons and lackeys), which world issue do you think DESERVES our attention, and for that matter our hard earned tax money, when it comes to fixing things?
We have much bigger issues closer to home. The state of our armed forces not the least of them.
If Ukraine had been left to its own devices and defence, I think anyone at this point would find it hard to argue that might have been better for the actual Ukrainian people, who are now dying enmasse, and watching their countries untimely destruction in a proxy war? We'll never know. What I DO KNOW, is that we are all getting awfully close to WW3 and nuclear annihilation, and Ukraine is and will still be fubar.

You appear to be solely arguing for the sake of arguing.

As you suggest… if everyone in this thread is 100% against Russia and their single minded aggression. Great.

So all the points about other countries doing wrong or bad things is just filler and not an excuse. Great.

As for fear mongering about WW3. Nope. Not even close. Not unless Russia attacks NATO and that would be stupidity on the part of Russia. They make stupid choices with attacking Ukraine… but attacking NATO is a 100 magnitudes more stupid.

Russia was once seen as a fierce military power. Now that has been dispelled. NATO would push them back but not try to take over Russia. Who wants that headache. The country is a mess and totally brainwashed.

Our armed forces aren’t needed to the same degree as Ukraine. Being part of NATO assures us of that. Doing our fair share however is important but we’ve been behind for ever… as have others.

As for Ukraine being better off subjugated and controlled by Russia. Give me a break. Talk about definition of disgustingly insulting to the Ukrainian people. If some aren’t making excuses in favour of Russian then I miss read and am sorry.

Fact of this thread is Canada’s contribution hasn’t exceeded our own. Fact is the world helping Ukraine to win, stops or slows Russia from doing this to other independent countries.

As for China… are countries net better off under their control or is it a state of financial servitude?

https://www.bbc.com/news/59585507

IMF had not been kind to poor countries either but the use of Debt as a weapon is clear. The fact western banking won’t bankroll some debt but China will, is clearly more strategic than commercial. Time will tell the consequences but my gut says when western banks are defaulted, they lick their wounds, write off the debt and go home. What will China do to protect their investments is the question.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by big_plinker

I'm just going to leave this here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit..._regime_change
This one is just Latin America, and none of them ended in a nice way for the natives

Okay. Just looking at the Aristide point looks very shady so what about the rest of this graphic?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Bertrand_Aristide

How about providing the link to your source. I’m curious.

So your link is from https://www.thedailybeast.com/grassr...by-the-kremlin.

Redfish media. You realize it’s part of the Putin propaganda network. And you are lecturing me on facts. Interesting.

‘Grassroots’ Media Startup Redfish Is Supported by the Kremlin
NO AMATEUR ACT
The documentary outlet styles itself as independent and community-based, but its work airs on a state-supported TV network and most of its employees are from state-backed media.
Charles Davis
Updated Jun. 19, 2018 5:40PM ET
Published Feb. 01, 2018 4:45AM ET
EXCLUSIVE
Photo Illustration by Lyne Lucien/The Daily Beast

Listen to article11 minutes
Redfish, a Berlin-based media collective, launched with a promise to deliver “radical, in-depth grassroots features,” with professional graphics, filed everywhere from Eastern Europe to South America. Its first report, on a fire at a public housing development in England that killed over 70 people, has been praised by Vice, as a “fantastic example of amateur community-produced media.”

But Redfish does not appear to be as independent and community-based as its branding suggests. Its reports are the product of an in-house team of staff correspondents and producers, most of whom last worked for Russian government media. And by the time that documentary on Grenfell Tower was discovered by Vice, it had been airing for weeks as an “exclusive grassroots report” on RT, Moscow’s state-supported television network.

What exactly is Redfish, then? Amateur, community-produced media—or something else, designed to appear as something other than it is?

Redfish, for its part, won’t clarify. In an email, the company said it “is not interested in providing a comment for your story.” RT, meanwhile, did not respond to multiple emailed requests for comment, and phone calls to its offices in Moscow went unanswered.

The Redfish website, registered in September 2017, reveals little more than a desire to be perceived as a collective of activist journalists. “We are not driven by chasing clicks or trends—we are journalists who strive to be objective about where things stand,” it says. “But we don’t claim to be neutral: our team has a proven track record of both supporting and covering struggles which challenge the exploitative global system that enslaves humankind and is destroying our planet.”

Elizabeth Cocker, better known by the moniker Lizzie Phelan, is the only name listed on redfish.media. Before Redfish, Cocker spent the previous seven years working for the propaganda arms of Moscow and Tehran, her work closely adhering to the lines pushed by the governments that paid her.

As a reporter for RT, for example, Cocker filed a story suggesting an April 2017 sarin attack in rebel-held Idlib was a false flag; according to the United Nations, that attack was in fact carried out by the Syrian regime, a Russian ally. She also accompanied pro-regime forces into Eastern Aleppo after rebels were pushed out, her report stating that militants had been using bakeries, a frequent target of Russian and Syrian government airstrikes, to build weapons.

As RT’s correspondent in Libya, Cocker dismissed reports of rebel advances on the capital, Tripoli, as a “massive psychological operation.” The city fell 48 hours later.

Cocker has also worked for the Iranian government’s Press TV. In 2012, she reported that Syrian rebel fire was responsible for the killing of French journalist Gilles Jacquier, who had been touring Homs with regime forces. Jacqueir’s colleagues blamed the Syrian government, with the Committee to Protect Journalists stating that evidence points to “the possibility that government forces may have taken deliberate, hostile action against the press.”

Cocker’s LinkedIn profile says she left RT in April; she’s not the only one at Redfish whose last (and long-term) employer was an arm of the Russian government.

Jelena Milincic, whose Twitter bio identifies her as a correspondent for Redifsh, was a reporter for RT’s Spanish-language network as of October 2017. In 2013, Milincic met Russian President Vladimir Putin when he visited RT’s headquarters in Moscow, engaging in a roundtable discussion in which she lamented the difficulties she faced trying to obtain Russian citizenship. (Milincic is a native of Belgrade whose mother heads Sputnik Serbia, another media outlet established by the Kremlin.)

“We have to welcome professionals like you,” Putin responded, according to an official transcript. “You are a young and beautiful woman. I am sorry, but it is true that you are a woman of childbearing age. Your boss here sets a good example, by the way...” (That boss, RT Editor-in-Chief Margarita Simonyan, likens the role of Kremlin-backed media to that of Russia’s Defense Ministry. Information, she has said, is “a weapon like any other.”)

Milincic recently filed a report for Redfish, viewed over 120,000 times on Facebook, about the economic crisis in Venezuela, accompanying Venezuelan soldiers on a trip to the border with Colombia to uncover smuggling rings that the government blames for shortages of basic goods in the struggling oil-rich country.

That report is now available on RT en Español, where it’s described in Spanish as an investigation by “the Redfish project.” (Belal Alwan, a Redfish producer formerly with Ruptly, an on-demand video division of RT, likewise described Redfish as a “new investigative video project” in a post on his Facebook page.)


Another Redfish correspondent, William Whiteman, also worked for RT and, in August and September of 2017, accompanied Cocker on a trip to the Philippines. Until recently, Whiteman’s LinkedIn stated that he “is a host /producer at online news platform, In the NOW”; it also said he had “worked as [a] correspondent at RT International.” It now identifies him as a “reporter at redfish,” omitting that previous experience.

“In the Now” first began as a show on RT but then, according to BuzzFeed News, “transitioned to a standalone project in the spring of 2016.” It has its own website, inthenow.media, but its videos “live on YouTube, Facebook, and Twitter, and nowhere on each platform is there branding or descriptions that connect them to RT.”

Redfish, likewise, makes no mention on any of its platforms of the place where its work has been most widely distributed: RT. Five of the nine employees publicly associated with this new startup last worked at a Russian state media outlet; one of the few who did not is a U.S. journalist, Rania Khalek, frequently hosted as a commentator on Sputnik and RT, the latter identifying her as a contributor. Khalek announced in November 2017 that she had accepted a job as a correspondent for Redfish.

Redfish’s aggressively “grassroots” branding comes amid a more covert and recently exposed Russian effort to infiltrate left-of-center media. As reported by The Washington Post and the left-wing website Counterpunch, this initiative has entailed creating fake web personas, masquerading as independent journalists, that exploit the trappings and platforms of alternative media to push the Russian line on geopolitics.

Russia is not the first country to promote its agenda abroad, nor the only one to use ostensibly independent media to do it.

During the height of the Cold War, Radio Free Europe, for instance, was billed as providing “unbiased news for Eastern Europeans,” historian Kenneth Osgood noted in an October 2017 piece for The New York Times. In reality, the CIA “used it to wage a subversive campaign to weaken Communist governments behind the Iron Curtain.” And it did so surreptitiously, the agency creating a front group, the National Committee for a Free Europe, “that implored Americans to donate ‘freedom dollars’ to combat Kremlin lies,” as if it were a grassroots initiative launched by concerned patriots. The donations, according to Osgood, amounted to about $1 million a year (the outlet’s actual budget was around $30 million).

It’s not that everything RT or Radio Free Europe reports is total fake news; there’s enough injustice, from East to West, that a skillful propagandist’s aims can be achieved simply by fanning the fires of selective outrage over one, somewhere, while studiously ignoring an inconvenient other. But it’s essential to be aware of those aims so as to better catch an embellishment, lie, or manipulative fixation—why sovereignty is an issue for Russia in Syria and Venezuela but not Ukraine and Crimea, and likewise why the U.S. government is concerned about democracy in Venezuela, a center-left foe, but not Honduras, a right-wing friend.

Hypocrisy is universal, which is not a revelation. Sometimes it can even do some good; a corporation or government need not be angelic, and indeed none are, to observe that a rival is a fraud.

“Looking back at the Cold War: Soviet attacks on U.S. sins around civil rights spurred the U.S. government to improve its civil rights stance domestically,” Peter Pomerantsev, a senior visiting fellow at the London School of Economics who has tracked Russian propaganda efforts, told The Daily Beast. “So, in some cases, foreign campaigns can be a good thing.”

States are rarely motivated by principled internationalism, and only sometimes by the spectacle of good public relations; cynical self-interest often better explains why a particular injustice is denounced, defended, or ignored on the part of officialdom. That’s easy to see, and it’s why a state might wish to obscure its cynicism by packaging its line in someone else’s earnest aesthetic.

Russia is also not the USSR, and its use of state-backed media to promote conspiratorial disinformation on behalf of authoritarian clients rather undermines the notion that its right-wing government is today engaged in anything as noble as the fight for civil rights.

All money corrupts, but the degree to which it does, and to what end, can only be assessed if there’s some transparency. That shouldn’t bother independent, grassroots media.

[Scott h]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Can China influence Canadian politics? Russia has lessons to teach us all.

https://news.yahoo.com/exclusive-rus...230008434.html

I give them credit that these plans are long games. They disrupt the countries from within and then pounce.

Anyone that has seen the change on the west coast since Expo "86 with the mass influx of Chinese since that time knows that they can, in fact have, and plan to continue to influence politics. Much more subtle than the Russians very crude version, it's however the same play book; get a large number living in the area, and then politically influence how the country is run. It's been unbelievably successful in BC, and it's just getting started in Alberta.

https://www.delta-optimist.com/econo...d-2016-6693610

[ruffy71]

Originally Posted by big_plinker

I'm just going to leave this here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unit..._regime_change
This one is just Latin America, and none of them ended in a nice way for the natives

Why don't you wikipedia "Soviet foreign interventions" and "Russian foreign interventions"?

Your only premise is that whatever else anybody else does, the USA is worse.

Which doesn't solve anything, for anybody.

And your claim of "we'll never know" is hardly reassuring when you honestly look at what other dictators have done over the same time.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

Why don't you wikipedia "Soviet foreign interventions" and "Russian foreign interventions"?

Your only premise is that whatever else anybody else does, the USA is worse.

Which doesn't solve anything, for anybody.

And your claim of "we'll never know" is hardly reassuring when you honestly look at what other dictators have done over the same time.

Fact is, his source is a propaganda arm of Russia. Not sure he knew that.

Fact is almost all conflicts in the world were Russia and US involved. Most via proxies like South Africa fighting for US and Angola fighting for USSR.

Cubans for years were forced to send their men to these wars as payment for USSR financially backing their Economy. Delving deeper the Castro regime didn’t want to be communist… just oust the criminals controlling the island and subjugating the people… but the US blackballed them and they were forced to turn to USSR.

Russia and China support North Korea but the country lives in misery. Venezuela is deep into a dumpster fire.

[Fisherdan]

Originally Posted by huntsfurfish

While the US has done some questionable things. It has been a good neighbor compared to Russia. The last war the US had with its northern neighbor was 1812-1814 almost 210 years ago and war with its southern neighbor was 1846-1848, thats 175 years ago. You shore as heck cant say that about Russia. They beat up an internal country or neighbor every decade or 2. I know which country I would want as a neighbor. The USA anytime. The world cant keep allowing bad behavior from Russia and need to stand up now. If they dont, nato will be drawn into a war with Russia and it wont be to far down the line.

And if Russia wins, it sets the wrong precedant for all the wanna be nuclear countries. We get nukes and we too can be bullies. And it will only encourage them that they can take more.

This is so very important people. Staying out of it would be a huge mistake. You may not want war but it can come to you whether you want it or not.

You, Sundance and others have very good points. Your statement, of this is so very important, is true.

Personally, I just have such a tough time now believing what the United States says. Years ago, when Iraq broke out, I was gung ho for it. Believed the whole WMD narrative. With Afghanistan, I thought the West was doing the right thing. Let’s spread democracy.

With Ukraine, I was cautiously on board at first. Then the pipelines blew up. Narrative was Russia did it of course… Putin is crazy. Anything else was fake news or Russian propaganda. At the time, I thought no way. This benefits the US (Who are rapidly upgrading existing LNG facilities and building new ones to supply Europe). Made zero sense that Russia would do it. Was called crazy for thinking that.

A month ago, Seymour Hersh comes out with a bombshell article about the pipelines, and today the narrative has changed.

So now, I’m a bit jaded and I just don’t know.

[big_plinker]

I know that we'll never know.
About covid, about Ukraine, about any of the effed up things that have worked to completely divide and change western society the last 3 years.
They wouldn't be doing their job very well, of spinning a narrative to get people divided, while they blow billions of tax payers dollars and kill millions of people, if we ever do know.

To the victor goes the spoils, and that definitely means the record of history, too.

But the separating of German reliance on Russian gas (Germany was literally Russia's biggest customer) in a market this lucrative, at the beginning of winter, being perpetrated by the Russians while they're at war and their economy is under predictable sanction attack, is just idiotic, and you'd have to be idiotic or crazy to believe it.

My source was googling 'American Regime Change' and taking the first image that ACCURATELY represents US intervention (and military bases, which I never knew but definitely believe, considering the amount of money the US wastes maintaining its military bases outside of USA) in Latin America. Google is DEFINITELY not in the habit of disseminating Russian propaganda, not these days. Chinese maybe?

You want to talk about propaganda? Off handedly dismissing accurate information with a reference to a Russian media outlet, while offering zero evidence said media ACTUALLY came from that Russian outlet? That's disinformation, aka propaganda. The warmongers on either side of the Ukraine conversation are definitely hard at it in that regard. Diversify your knowledge base, is all I can say in that regard.

The war in Ukraine is evil. Russia started it, and isn't leaving without a peace agreement that favours them. Or total victory or defeat, neither of which I'm looking forward to witnessing.
The West (and yeah, I mean America and its lackeys) isn't letting there be a peace agreement. On it's own, which it should have been considering the defence agreements it had in place at the time(none), Ukraine would have brokered peace a year ago, and may have actually been doing so, if the west hadn't intervened and offered billions of dollars and weapons to one of the most corrupt nations in Europe.
Now we have millions of displaced Ukrainians and hundreds of thousands of dead Ukrainians and Russians. Not the rich mind you, who love war. Just the poor.
Peace is the only good option, and it's not being allowed to happen. The cost to Ukraine, to have Russia pull out of Ukraine like it pulled out of Afghanistan (and to Russia, Ukraine is a hell of a lot more important than Afghanistan), is looking more and more like nuclear Armageddon. You think Russia is just going to leave? You think they're just going to lose? That naivete is going to just get lots, and I mean A LOT, more people killed.
Tell me how that's Russian Propaganda?

We need to focus on our own nation.
It's not doing very well, in case you haven't noticed.
A patriot would say it's on its death bed.
What do I know?

[ruffy71]

It's been quoted many times but it is absolutely true, inescapable.

If Russia quits fighting, there is peace.

If Ukraine quits fighting there is no more Ukraine, and people will be living for years and decades, just like all for the former soviet countries did, until they kicked the Russians out once and for all.

Believe it or not, the Ukrainians know more about this than you and I do. They know what it's like to live as a Russian vassal state, they know what the Americans have done (they have internet in Ukraine, universities, etc etc, shocking eh?)

And yet they are willing to die, before they submit to Putin and Moscow.

That says more than any graph, or chart.

[big_plinker]

Most Ukrainians I know just want this conflict to end, at any cost. But nobody is listening.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Fisherdan

You, Sundance and others have very good points. Your statement, of this is so very important, is true.

Personally, I just have such a tough time now believing what the United States says. Years ago, when Iraq broke out, I was gung ho for it. Believed the whole WMD narrative. With Afghanistan, I thought the West was doing the right thing. Let’s spread democracy.

With Ukraine, I was cautiously on board at first. Then the pipelines blew up. Narrative was Russia did it of course… Putin is crazy. Anything else was fake news or Russian propaganda. At the time, I thought no way. This benefits the US (Who are rapidly upgrading existing LNG facilities and building new ones to supply Europe). Made zero sense that Russia would do it. Was called crazy for thinking that.

A month ago, Seymour Hersh comes out with a bombshell article about the pipelines, and today the narrative has changed.

So now, I’m a bit jaded and I just don’t know.

My feeling is that history shows you need to let the people in the country decide. Mind your business and not interfere. There is much more depth and complexity to political leadership around the world from cultural, to economic to race and ethnicity. Protecting populations from attacks from other countries is important as international border integrity applies to all.

But in the case of Afghanistan… and Iraq. They don’t want western democracy because they have never had it and don’t understand it. They have lived for centuries with religious elders governing them and dictating what does and doesn’t happen. When the Taliban killed all the elders, they looked to the Taliban to fill the roll. When the Americans came in and taught them the western way and then left… the population just waiting for the taliban to come back and tell them what to do. No desire to fight for freedom. Freedom can be relative to you culture.

All the time and effort was lost because culturally they don’t want what we think they want.

In the case of the Ukraine. They want freedom. They don’t want corruption. They want peace and not to be subjugated. Granted it will take time to evolve from the Russian systemic past. Before Russia attacked with proxies in the east they didn’t have a good functioning military. They were forced to learn to fight and NATO were the best so they got training. When Crimea was attacked Ukraine ramped up even more.

We all need to look with open eyes however just like conspiracy sites can sprinkle facts into mostly fiction and weave a story… the US and Canada and all the west helping Ukraine is good. While some decisions can be poor… it shouldn’t cloud the obvious good ones.

This war stops when Russia leaves Ukraine’s sovereign territory.

[ruffy71]

Originally Posted by big_plinker

Most Ukrainians I know just want this conflict to end, at any cost. But nobody is listening.

Of course the Ukrainians want it all to stop. Some, are maybe even at the point they would surrender to Putin.

Then there are how many 10's of thousands of soldiers fighting to the death. 10's of thousands supporting the soldiers.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by big_plinker

I know that we'll never know.
About covid, about Ukraine, about any of the effed up things that have worked to completely divide and change western society the last 3 years.
They wouldn't be doing their job very well, of spinning a narrative to get people divided, while they blow billions of tax payers dollars and kill millions of people, if we ever do know.

To the victor goes the spoils, and that definitely means the record of history, too.

But the separating of German reliance on Russian gas (Germany was literally Russia's biggest customer) in a market this lucrative, at the beginning of winter, being perpetrated by the Russians while they're at war and their economy is under predictable sanction attack, is just idiotic, and you'd have to be idiotic or crazy to believe it.

My source was googling 'American Regime Change' and taking the first image that ACCURATELY represents US intervention (and military bases, which I never knew but definitely believe, considering the amount of money the US wastes maintaining its military bases outside of USA) in Latin America. Google is DEFINITELY not in the habit of disseminating Russian propaganda, not these days. Chinese maybe?

You want to talk about propaganda? Off handedly dismissing accurate information with a reference to a Russian media outlet, while offering zero evidence said media ACTUALLY came from that Russian outlet? That's disinformation, aka propaganda. The warmongers on either side of the Ukraine conversation are definitely hard at it in that regard. Diversify your knowledge base, is all I can say in that regard.

The war in Ukraine is evil. Russia started it, and isn't leaving without a peace agreement that favours them. Or total victory or defeat, neither of which I'm looking forward to witnessing.
The West (and yeah, I mean America and its lackeys) isn't letting there be a peace agreement. On it's own, which it should have been considering the defence agreements it had in place at the time(none), Ukraine would have brokered peace a year ago, and may have actually been doing so, if the west hadn't intervened and offered billions of dollars and weapons to one of the most corrupt nations in Europe.
Now we have millions of displaced Ukrainians and hundreds of thousands of dead Ukrainians and Russians. Not the rich mind you, who love war. Just the poor.
Peace is the only good option, and it's not being allowed to happen. The cost to Ukraine, to have Russia pull out of Ukraine like it pulled out of Afghanistan (and to Russia, Ukraine is a hell of a lot more important than Afghanistan), is looking more and more like nuclear Armageddon. You think Russia is just going to leave? You think they're just going to lose? That naivete is going to just get lots, and I mean A LOT, more people killed.
Tell me how that's Russian Propaganda?

We need to focus on our own nation.
It's not doing very well, in case you haven't noticed.
A patriot would say it's on its death bed.
What do I know?

Redfish media. Your source of information is Russian government owned and operated. You can research it yourself however here is another link with a quote.

https://www.vice.com/en/article/wxdb5z/redfish-media-russia-propaganda-misinformation

A Kremlin-backed media outlet masquerading as a left-wing news source has spent the last week racking up likes and shares on its viral content designed to undermine U.S. support for Ukraine.

Credibility of using Russian state news propaganda as a source of proof of anything… or a fair discussion topic is like using CBC as a source on why Trudeau is great and tax payer funding is great for Canadians.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

Of course the Ukrainians want it all to stop. Some, are maybe even at the point they would surrender to Putin.

Then there are how many 10's of thousands of soldiers fighting to the death. 10's of thousands supporting the soldiers.

Exactly. Putin’s war strategy is to kill innocent civilians. Destroy their homes, schools, hospitals. Bomb their infrastructure and destroy their economy. Then rely on suffering populations to surrender to their fate under Russian boots.

Any pretext that the population wants to surrender is part of Putin’s propaganda and likely from reading their propaganda news like Redfish media and others.

[big_plinker]

It's funny, every outlet that says redfish media is Russian propaganda has proven itself to be western propaganda (vice.com? How'd they do with covid 'disinformation'?). The owner worked for RT, but now lives in Germany and specializes in war correspondence. Does that raise suspicions, it sure does. But does it negate the information? No, it doesn't.
My point is, the information I posted, no matter the reasoning behind WHY redfish compiled it, is accurate. THAT'S THE IMPORTANT THING.
You are going to have a neh impossible job of funding information of any kind in this world that isn't coming from biased sources.
You point to ANY NEWS OUTLET right now and you'll find suspect credibility. All of them work for someone.
Diversify your sources, so that your opinion is LESS biased. Something that's becoming a rare thing these days.

Edit: although with war and any other state sanctioned murder, it's understandable that passion might replace any prerequisite for an unbiased opinion.

[Pekan]

Russia/USSR was, is, and will always be the enemy of freedom and personal liberty. Ukraine might not be perfect, but they're fighting for their version of the life we in the west enjoy and take for granted.

I fully support sending resources to help them succeed.

Coaching the RMC's rugby team doesn't count as being a military insider with special insight worthy of writing for a national news outlet. Him throwing in the statement that we give more to Ukraine than to our own military certainly shows he's uninformed on the subject.
But kudos for an old guy understanding how to write a click bait article!

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by big_plinker

It's funny, every outlet that says redfish media is Russian propaganda has proven itself to be western propaganda (vice.com? How'd they do with covid 'disinformation'?). The owner worked for RT, but now lives in Germany and specializes in war correspondence. Does that raise suspicions, it sure does. But does it negate the information? No, it doesn't.
My point is, the information I posted, no matter the reasoning behind WHY redfish compiled it, is accurate. THAT'S THE IMPORTANT THING.
You are going to have a neh impossible job of funding information of any kind in this world that isn't coming from biased sources.
You point to ANY NEWS OUTLET right now and you'll find suspect credibility. All of them work for someone.
Diversify your sources, so that your opinion is LESS biased. Something that's becoming a rare thing these days.

Edit: although with war and any other state sanctioned murder, it's understandable that passion might replace any prerequisite for an unbiased opinion.

Do you acknowledge that Russian state media RT finances Redfish media?

[big_plinker]

Has that information been unequivocally proven, especially by a source not financed by Western interests? I don't even know where I'd start looking for a media outlet like that.
You understand that propaganda is a 2 way street?
Everyone has ulterior motives.

Like you, with your 'defend Ukraine, whatever it takes' rhetoric.
My ulterior motives are that war is murder, and I'd like that murder to stop, and supplying hundreds of billions in arms and money to Ukraine is only going to guarantee more murder, more corruption, more exploitation, more future problems with very sophisticated and untraceable weapons entering the black market for terrorism, and nothing else.

[ruffy71]

I'd have more sympathy for your 'war is murder" angle if it didn't serve the Russians perfectly.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by big_plinker

Has that information been unequivocally proven, especially by a source not financed by Western interests? I don't even know where I'd start looking for a media outlet like that.
You understand that propaganda is a 2 way street?
Everyone has ulterior motives.

Like you, with your 'defend Ukraine, whatever it takes' rhetoric.
My ulterior motives are that war is murder, and I'd like that murder to stop, and supplying hundreds of billions in arms and money to Ukraine is only going to guarantee more murder, more corruption, more exploitation, more future problems with very sophisticated and untraceable weapons entering the black market for terrorism, and nothing else.

Yes. Ruptly funds Redfish. Ruptly is a Russian state owned company.

Ahh. So you are against Ukraine fighting. You do want them to surrender.

I aghast. I never would of thunk it.

Postulate this.

If the west stopped funding Ukraine’s defence, will Russia stop killing Ukrainians and go home? Leave Ukraine to clean up their corruption in order to fully join the EU or the Russian group or both if they do desire? Or if Ukraine stopped getting weapons to fight back and defend that Russia would roll over them once resources ran out, kill Zelensky and set up a puppet government?

You are doing a great “passively supporting Russia” angle.

I believe neither the west nor Russia wants any arms entering the black market and into terrorists hands.

Right now it appears all weapons are being used. Flow of weapons would stop if Russia left.

It Russia attacked Canada and we were being shelled and people getting killed, would you be the one to stand up telling everyone to surrender because it’s safer?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by big_plinker

Has that information been unequivocally proven, especially by a source not financed by Western interests? I don't even know where I'd start looking for a media outlet like that.
You understand that propaganda is a 2 way street?
Everyone has ulterior motives.

Like you, with your 'defend Ukraine, whatever it takes' rhetoric.
My ulterior motives are that war is murder, and I'd like that murder to stop, and supplying hundreds of billions in arms and money to Ukraine is only going to guarantee more murder, more corruption, more exploitation, more future problems with very sophisticated and untraceable weapons entering the black market for terrorism, and nothing else.

If the ultimate goal is to end the "murder" as quickly as possible, then would you support sending the weapons and support to Russia instead, and cutting off all supplies to the Ukraine? That would no doubt bring the quickest end to the war, as it would allow the Russians to quickly overrun the Ukraine.You could make the same argument for the USA/Canada refusing to send any supplies overseas in WW2.

[Pekan]

We need to focus on our own nation.
It's not doing very well, in case you haven't noticed.
A patriot would say it's on its death bed.
What do I know?[/QUOTE]

On it's death bed. Really?
Your average Canadian makes great money by global standards, has their kids in as many sports as they can afford, owns a couple of vehicles and their own home, has access to healthcare, education, community policing which is mostly free of corruption. And on and on. You probably stopped at a Hortons on the way to work today for a little snack and a coffee while driving on orderly roads where most people follow the rules of the road. You my outdoors loving friend are a great example of a guy who truly doesn't know how good he has it. The very fact hat you're free to moan about our own government without being thrown in jail, beat up by goons, or lose your job over it should also be mentioned.

Originally Posted by big_plinker

I know that we'll never know.
About covid, about Ukraine, about any of the effed up things that have worked to completely divide and change western society the last 3 years.
They wouldn't be doing their job very well, of spinning a narrative to get people divided, while they blow billions of tax payers dollars and kill millions of people, if we ever do know.

To the victor goes the spoils, and that definitely means the record of history, too.

But the separating of German reliance on Russian gas (Germany was literally Russia's biggest customer) in a market this lucrative, at the beginning of winter, being perpetrated by the Russians while they're at war and their economy is under predictable sanction attack, is just idiotic, and you'd have to be idiotic or crazy to believe it.

My source was googling 'American Regime Change' and taking the first image that ACCURATELY represents US intervention (and military bases, which I never knew but definitely believe, considering the amount of money the US wastes maintaining its military bases outside of USA) in Latin America. Google is DEFINITELY not in the habit of disseminating Russian propaganda, not these days. Chinese maybe?

You want to talk about propaganda? Off handedly dismissing accurate information with a reference to a Russian media outlet, while offering zero evidence said media ACTUALLY came from that Russian outlet? That's disinformation, aka propaganda. The warmongers on either side of the Ukraine conversation are definitely hard at it in that regard. Diversify your knowledge base, is all I can say in that regard.

The war in Ukraine is evil. Russia started it, and isn't leaving without a peace agreement that favours them. Or total victory or defeat, neither of which I'm looking forward to witnessing.
The West (and yeah, I mean America and its lackeys) isn't letting there be a peace agreement. On it's own, which it should have been considering the defence agreements it had in place at the time(none), Ukraine would have brokered peace a year ago, and may have actually been doing so, if the west hadn't intervened and offered billions of dollars and weapons to one of the most corrupt nations in Europe.
Now we have millions of displaced Ukrainians and hundreds of thousands of dead Ukrainians and Russians. Not the rich mind you, who love war. Just the poor.
Peace is the only good option, and it's not being allowed to happen. The cost to Ukraine, to have Russia pull out of Ukraine like it pulled out of Afghanistan (and to Russia, Ukraine is a hell of a lot more important than Afghanistan), is looking more and more like nuclear Armageddon. You think Russia is just going to leave? You think they're just going to lose? That naivete is going to just get lots, and I mean A LOT, more people killed.
Tell me how that's Russian Propaganda?

We need to focus on our own nation.
It's not doing very well, in case you haven't noticed.
A patriot would say it's on its death bed.
What do I know?

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Pekan

On it's death bed. Really?
Your average Canadian makes great money by global standards, has their kids in as many sports as they can afford, owns a couple of vehicles and their own home, has access to healthcare, education, community policing which is mostly free of corruption. And on and on. You probably stopped at a Hortons on the way to work today for a little snack and a coffee while driving on orderly roads where most people follow the rules of the road. You my outdoors loving friend are a great example of a guy who truly doesn't know how good he has it. The very fact hat you're free to moan about our own government without being thrown in jail, beat up by goons, or lose your job over it should also be mentioned.

So is our spending power as a Canadian increasing or decreasing? Will future generations be able to own their own homes, the way things are going? Some Canadians have had their bank accounts frozen, and some were put in jail, for simply protesting the actions of our government.
It's not just a question of what Canadians have now, it's a question of what they will have in the future, because of our government.

[Bigwoodsman]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

So is our spending power as a Canadian increasing or decreasing? Will future generations be able to own their own homes, the way things are going? Some Canadians have had their bank accounts frozen, and some were put in jail, for simply protesting the actions of our government.
It's not just a question of what Canadians have now, it's a question of what they will have in the future, because of our government.

Exactly!

And this is why China is interfering with our democracy, to ensure the downward spiral continues. They have a plan and you can be it includes energy supply.

BW

[big_plinker]

'If the ultimate goal is to end the "murder" as quickly as possible, then would you support sending the weapons and support to Russia instead, and cutting off all supplies to the Ukraine? That would no doubt bring the quickest end to the war, as it would allow the Russians to quickly overrun the Ukraine.You could make the same argument for the USA/Canada refusing to send any supplies overseas in WW2.'

The USA sent an awful lot of supplies to China and Soviet Russia during WW2. Parse that into your world view if you feel like it. It certainly helped both those nations technology wise, to subjugate their citizens, never mind help them, ESPECIALLY USSR, end WW2 at the greatest expense of life amongst all of the allied forces.

But, for the record, no, I don't think sending weapons and money to Russia to expedite the end of the conflict would be prudent. It would be serious a lapse in judgement.
I'm totally against sending money and guns to any corrupt nation, which both Ukraine and Russia check the boxes on, especially at the expense of our own counties defensive and ultimate well being.
That said, with the ethnic history of Ukraine in mind, with a Russian funded and western trained civil war in Ukraine for the last 9 years, with Ukraine having a huge percentage of Russian nationalists, I think letting Ukraine and Russia work things out on their own, without killing every last living thing on planet earth because of the arrogance of the rich and stupid, might be prudent.

You obviously think Slava Ukraine is worth the risk of earthly annihilation.
I. Do. Not.

[ruffy71]

Originally Posted by KC1

https://vernoncoleman.org/videos/urg...rning-everyone

So the good doctor has it all figured out.

And meanwhile 50 secretaries of state and chairs of joint chiefs of staff, all these people from 50 developed countries all just met and announced their support for Ukraine.

All duped conspiring idiots because the good doctor in your link is smarter than all of them and has really figured it out.

Okey dokey

[ruffy71]

Ahh so now we’re back to nuclear Armageddon.

It’s been 13 months, and Russia has had how many thousands of soldiers killed.

What’s he waiting for?

So have we run the full gamut?

It’s none of our business
The USA is evil
We’re all going to die.

[big_plinker]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

So the good doctor has it all figured out.

And meanwhile 50 secretaries of state and chairs of joint chiefs of staff, all these people from 50 developed countries all just met and announced their support for Ukraine.

All duped conspiring idiots because the good doctor in your link is smarter than all of them and has really figured it out.

Okey dokey

Smarter? Who's talking intelligence here? When rich people have nothing, NOTHING, to lose, why do you think they're making decisions that have the best interests of the people that have EVERYTHING to lose?
I'm not saying the 'good doctor' is right.
The way conspiracy theories are proving true these days, I'm certainly not ruling him out, ESPECIALLY when you weigh the consequence of the doctors advice over the consequences of trusting 'elected' officials anywhere in the western world after the charade of the last 3 years (never mind the last 50).
That's literally like trusting Trudeau, and a whole bunch of other people just like him.