Military Resources to Ukraine exceeds aid to Canada's own Military

[Glion]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

It's not for me, or anyone else to decide what Ukraine does.

How would we feel if the world told us Canadians that we're the USA's puppet, and we need to start listening to China more, respect China's sphere of influence. Stop provoking China?

Ukrainians decided of their own free will that they wanted to specifically separate from Russia's sphere of influence, no different than every other former Soviet country. If it's okay for Estonia to not want anything to do with Russia, it sure as heck is just fine for Ukrainians to decide the same thing.

If Russia is such an honest broker of justice and peace, how come absolutely none of the former Soviet countries like Poland, Latvia, Ukraine want anything to do with them.

Too bad so sad for Russia. If it wasn't such a hot mess of corruption, and autocracy, this, all of it, would never have happened.

I agree Ukraine should be allowed to do what they like, free of influence from any side.
However the world does not work like that.
As for us we are in a sense a puppet in the west, if we of our own free choice decided to align with or join Russia, I think the US would have a response. I wont hypothesize what it would be. But while we desire the free choice we have to realize we have "limited" free choice.
Does it suck for Ukraine, absolutely. Is it fair? Nope.
Is there a nice easy answer where everyone goes home happy? Highly doubtful.

[barbless]

What I don't get about the whole thing is why is the Russian army or their commanders targeting civilians? Is it to break the will of the people? If Putin succeeds and I hope he doesn't (my opinion) then does that open the door for the other world nut bar of North Korea, Kim Jong-Un. His missile testings of late should be an indication. Maybe it's a way of him saying don't come DUCK with me. Do not do another Korean war on their turf. Just a thought

[Swede]

Originally Posted by barbless

What I don't get about the whole thing is why is the Russian army or their commanders targeting civilians? Is it to break the will of the people? If Putin succeeds and I hope he doesn't (my opinion) then does that open the door for the other world nut bar of North Korea, Kim Jong-Un. His missile testings of late should be an indication. Maybe it's a way of him saying don't come DUCK with me. Do not do another Korean war on their turf. Just a thought

Move over Putin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8

[dgl1948]

Originally Posted by barbless

What I don't get about the whole thing is why is the Russian army or their commanders targeting civilians? Is it to break the will of the people? If Putin succeeds and I hope he doesn't (my opinion) then does that open the door for the other world nut bar of North Korea, Kim Jong-Un. His missile testings of late should be an indication. Maybe it's a way of him saying don't come DUCK with me. Do not do another Korean war on their turf. Just a thought

Take a look at history.

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by barbless

What I don't get about the whole thing is why is the Russian army or their commanders targeting civilians? Is it to break the will of the people? If Putin succeeds and I hope he doesn't (my opinion) then does that open the door for the other world nut bar of North Korea, Kim Jong-Un. His missile testings of late should be an indication. Maybe it's a way of him saying don't come DUCK with me. Do not do another Korean war on their turf. Just a thought

Putin is a monster, a crazy man, history has a few from the past and now too, the future will hold a few more, difference is we can get on top of them easily now to prevent or hinder their progress.

[Grizzly Adams1]

Originally Posted by 58thecat

Putin is a monster, a crazy man, history has a few from the past and now too, the future will hold a few more, difference is we can get on top of them easily now to prevent or hinder their progress.

Putin is not unusual in historical terms, problem being the people that consistently maintain we can all just get along if we try , doesn't work.

Grizz

[ruffy71]

Originally Posted by Swede

Move over Putin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8

What is your point?

That Putin ain't that bad? That we shouldn't worry about Putin cause the USA is worse?

Because the USA did something bad, the world can't intervene forevermore in any other crap show?

[58thecat]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams1

Putin is not unusual in historical terms, problem being the people that consistently maintain we can all just get along if we try , doesn't work.

Grizz

That’s true, I picture the world as a school yard, periodically there will be push back to the bullies and then peace prevails for a time.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Swede

Move over Putin
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RM0uvgHKZe8

And then there is the entire country of Sweden that sees Russia for what it is right now and joining NATO.

https://www.government.se/government...-road-to-nato/

The entire resources of Sweden and their best minds have elected to join due to Illegal and horrible Russian aggression. They put lots of thought into their decision. Worth a read.

Sweden is also providing support to Ukraine.

https://www.government.se/government...on-of-ukraine/

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Grizzly Adams1

Putin is not unusual in historical terms, problem being the people that consistently maintain we can all just get along if we try , doesn't work.

Grizz

Yup. In a playground if people are open minded they listen to suggestions of games to play and stuff to do… collective will and support grows to what people want to do and some do one thing and some another. What to do can change daily.

Then there is the one kid that tells everyone what to do. If they are out of sight he worries what they are doing and saying. He worries others may want to do something different so he tracks them down and threatens and beats them up as needed so they listen to what he tells them to do. After all… he cares about them and wants them to be happy.

[32-40win]

Think Zeihan provides an interesting overview of what he thinks is going on in the general gist of things politically world wide and the Ukraine war. One statement he makes in here about the US undercutting the EU powers to put them into a "peaceful" condition in 1944 as an over view of what has happened since then, is interesting, and makes a fair bit of sense to me anyway. Taken with something of a grain of salt as usual;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jMQ-azCtv8

Then there are historical interpretations of what happened in Europe that show a lot of what seems to be reoccurring today withs some of the same brutality as before mixed in, only this time it isn't as well hidden to the rest of the world. First is a course taught in the last year at Yale, that was recorded and published about the history of Russia/Ukraine/Lithuania/Crimea that set the stage for Ukraine to exist in the first place;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJczLlwp-d8

These delve into an overview with a lot more detail of the politics and actions of the 20th Century in eastern Europe and Russa. Some ugly stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mZDf0yd9ZI&t=31455s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITMLrdOiH10&t=5s

And then the Russian media, I feel sorry for Russians having to listen to this, but, it's a lot like CBC or any other mainstream media outlets, just the Russian version, where if you go back to the beginning of the Ukraine "intervention" and work your way back to now, you certainly get a picture of the Russian state's attitude changing over the last year, it's hard to watch too.

https://www.youtube.com/@russianmediamonitor/videos

[Swede]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

What is your point?

That Putin ain't that bad? That we shouldn't worry about Putin cause the USA is worse?

Because the USA did something bad, the world can't intervene forevermore in any other crap show?

Yes killing 2 million plus people over a lie was bad glad we agree.

[ruffy71]

But what is the point of bringing up that link, you've done it a few times now.

So because the US intervention in Iraq was a horrendous event.......

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Agreed

I saw no where in the article this fictitious number OP stated.

In fact the more money the democratic free world spends to support stopping a dictator bent on building an empire via war… the Better off Canada is.

The more money and resources Russia loses the better.

If Canada was attacked… I would hope Ukraine would come to our aid also.

Standing up to bullies is the right thing to do.

Putin can stop his megalomaniac inspired war any time he wants. Until then the valiant and courageous people of Ukraine will make him pay and they will win.

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Then when Russia makes a land grab in the Arctic, Trudeau could head up for a ribbon cutting and apology for our help to the Ukraine. Maybe set up some Russian police stations in Alberta.

It’s a slippery slope to give into evil out of fear or indifference.

Pretty much nailed it. And if Russia wins he wont stop for long. Just to rearm. Pay a little now or pay a lot later.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

Most of the money is not money. It’s equipment. Some of it is older and should have been replaced years ago. Carl Gustav launchers, leopard tanks.

Send them where they will do some good.

Buy our soldiers what they need and deserve in 2023.

And some of this money is coming back. That company that sent armoured trucks. How many countries will buy their trucks now? How many permanent good paying jobs will come from that?

It’s likely the USA will earn back every dime they send to Ukraine in orders for their stuff.

The only reason to complain about sending stuff to Ukraine once you know facts and not spin, is if you sympathize with Putin.

That would be good, well said.

[big_plinker]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

But what is the point of bringing up that link, you've done it a few times now.

So because the US intervention in Iraq was a horrendous event.......

Ummm, there's a lot of 'misinformation', and speculation abounds, about the war in Ukraine.
But one thing that IS A FACT, is that the US is the primary funding for that war, monetarily and equipment wise. They're spending more than everyone else combined. Including Russia.
And the US has pretty much THE WORST track record when it comes to doing things for good, moral, reasons.

That alone should give everyone room for pause as to what's going on in Ukraine, and why.
It won't, but it should.
The only thing I do know is that the young and the innocent are paying with their lives for rich psychopaths and their sick games.

[Swede]

If you haven't figured out who the liars are on this earth after the last 6 years nothing I say can help you.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by big_plinker

Ummm, there's a lot of 'misinformation', and speculation abounds, about the war in Ukraine.
But one thing that IS A FACT, is that the US is the primary funding for that war, monetarily and equipment wise. They're spending more than everyone else combined. Including Russia.
And the US has pretty much THE WORST track record when it comes to doing things for good, moral, reasons.

That alone should give everyone room for pause as to what's going on in Ukraine, and why.
It won't, but it should.
The only thing I do know is that the young and the innocent are paying with their lives for rich psychopaths and their sick games.

Yes the USA has the worst track record, the two world wars are a perfect example. It's not like troops and equipment from the USA helped to shorten or win either WW1, or WW2.

[ruffy71]

Yes, no doubt the USA has had some colossal crap shows around the world. And the USA and the West, have to have a hard look and what and why we do anything outside our borders.

But implicit in this blanket condemnation of the USA are some perilous assumptions.

1) the USA only intervenes in stable, happy, fun loving countries, thereby making them worse.
False, most (not all) places the USA intervenes are a crap show to begin with.

2) Not intervening is the best choice. And when 12 year old girls in Sudan get kidnapped, enslaved and raped? We don't intervene because we would just make things worse.

(Let's pause so the the men and women who fought and died in WW2 can finish rolling over in their graves.)

3) that if the USA and the west stop intervening, then all these places in the world will straighten themselves out, oh wait they are all happy stable places to begin with. My bad.

4)that if the USA and the west stop intervening, Russia and China will respectfully stay inside their countries and never step a toe into any other countries. But even if they don't who cares cause life with either of them is so much better than with the USA/West.

The world is complicated. But let's be honest about things. When the Russians left Afghanistan, almost the entire country cheered and shot at the Russian planes as they left.

When the USA left Afghanistan 50% of the population despaired and thousands almost died hanging off the wheels of the American planes as they took off.

[Fisherdan]

A lot of you are referencing World War I and II. They are relevant, of course.

But these were wars that Europeans started and destroyed/weakened themselves over. America helped finish them and was much richer for it.

In my lifetime, America has started several wars… with the exception of the first Iraq war, all of them illegitimate and complete losses in the end. (If Afghanistan had stayed an in and out operation, like Iraq-1, then that would have been legitimate).

Now we are one year into a war in Europe, championed by the same groups of people who championed Iraq and Afghanistan. A war that continues to escalate, and doesn’t have a clear mandate as far as I can see. Are the Ukrainians going all the way to crimea? Where are the lines? A year ago we were talking about weapons to defend. Now Ukrainian pilots are training with F-16s.

Biden keeps talking about the struggle between autocratic regimes and democracies. How many democracies has the United States upset and replaced with autocracies? The Brazilian president just said no to supplying Ukraine. His country is just one example of those that democracy was crushed by the US.(1964)

I think it’s very fair to be sceptical about all this.

[ruffy71]

Skepticism is welcome.

So the USA is a morass of evil . Okay.

Let’s peek at Norway. A bastion of autocracy and corruption. Love to randomly intervene where they don’t belong. A litany of death and destruction wherever they venture…..

And yet they support Ukraine, have sent weapons and money.

A nation of puppets? Idiots? Evil at their core?

What gives?

[Bushrat]

Lots of guys bashing the US. Without US intervention in all these places over the last 100 years or so makes me wonder what a map of the world would look like today. Something tells me it wouldn't be pretty.

[Fisherdan]

I don’t know what gives to be honest. We’re supposed to have clear answers in a world that is grey and murky.

Was Putin wrong in invading another country? Yes.
Could this war have been avoided? Probably.
Could negotiations have ended the war early on? Maybe?

But man, human beings are hungry for war.
Prior to WWI, Europe was immensely wealthy, and most people there thought that war would be crazy and illogical. It was.

Teddy Roosevelt said, “Speak softly and walk with a big stick.” Right now, the US is beating Russia over the head with their stick, poking China in the eye… Saudi too. So much for divide and conquer.

Tin foil hat time: I think what gives is that the post wwii era is at a close. Ukraine might be the first chapter in a struggle where a new world order takes form.

[TheIceTitan]

There must be an ancient Chinese proverb that says something similar to: Small dog behind a high fence makes the most noise.

Canada is utterly irrelevant in this conflict.

[Fisherdan]

Originally Posted by Bushrat

Lots of guys bashing the US. Without US intervention in all these places over the last 100 years or so makes me wonder what a map of the world would look like today. Something tells me it wouldn't be pretty.

You’re probably right for the most part. It would look different and probably not benefit us as much. But you have to admit, since the Vietnam war, the political elite down south has made some terrible and scandalous decisions in regards to war.

The original post was about resources to Ukraine. If Canada was smart, we’d ditch Trudeau and get some LNG out to Europe… just like the USA is doing now.

[big_plinker]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Yes the USA has the worst track record, the two world wars are a perfect example. It's not like troops and equipment from the USA helped to shorten or win either WW1, or WW2.

The US had MINIMAL influence on the outcome of the WW1, materially wise. Monetarily wise though, with the League of Nations and the Treaty of Versailles, is kind of why WW2 happened.

And as for WW2, the US turned away plenty of boats full of desperateJews in the 30's. Plus there's ample reason to believe they not only aggregated the Japanese into attacking Pearl Harbor (America was supplying them the majority of their oil supply, until America cancelled all their trade agreements), but that they also knew that Japan would attack Pearl Harbor even before Japan did.

And who made the most 'profit' out of the way WW2 worked out? You can't make a long lasting New World Order, which one could definitely call America's influence on the world during and after WW2, without some planning.

And YES, THE WORST TRACK RECORD. Nobody has killed more people than the old USA the last 70 years, other than China. And China killed their own people.
Awesome alma mater to belong to.

[big_plinker]

Originally Posted by ruffy71

Yes, no doubt the USA has had some colossal crap shows around the world. And the USA and the West, have to have a hard look and what and why we do anything outside our borders.

But implicit in this blanket condemnation of the USA are some perilous assumptions.

1) the USA only intervenes in stable, happy, fun loving countries, thereby making them worse.
False, most (not all) places the USA intervenes are a crap show to begin with.
That is completely arguable. Nothing exists in a void. We have no idea what would have happened if America didn't interfere. What we do know is that, when America DID interfere, millions died. FACT

2) Not intervening is the best choice. And when 12 year old girls in Sudan get kidnapped, enslaved and raped? We don't intervene because we would just make things worse.
12 year old girls are still getting kidnapped, enslaved, raped, killed, mutilated, in every country America has interfered in. 100% of those countries. It's literally still happening IN AMERICA. FACT

(Let's pause so the the men and women who fought and died in WW2 can finish rolling over in their graves.)

3) that if the USA and the west stop intervening, then all these places in the world will straighten themselves out, oh wait they are all happy stable places to begin with. My bad.
Well, we'll never know. One corrupt country interfering in another ending in corruption? Who knew? Simple fact is, every country America has interfered in is left in a worse state than it was BEFORE America decided to make money there (save people? Please!)

4)that if the USA and the west stop intervening, Russia and China will respectfully stay inside their countries and never step a toe into any other countries. But even if they don't who cares cause life with either of them is so much better than with the USA/West.
As with previous arguments, we'll never know. But the lesser of two evils is still evil, and I can tell you, the majority of the world looking to China and Russia, instead of America, speaks volumes about what America has done in the world the last 80 years, none of it good

The world is complicated. But let's be honest about things. When the Russians left Afghanistan, almost the entire country cheered and shot at the Russian planes as they left.

When the USA left Afghanistan 50% of the population despaired and thousands almost died hanging off the wheels of the American planes as they took off.
Afghanistan never asked for American intervention. Most of the horrible stuff that was happening in Afghanistan BEFORE America officially stepped foot in there, had a lot to do with what America was doing there in the 70's and 80's to circumvent the USSR. The fallout of which definitely had a lot to do with 9/11

Sure.
As always, I recommend every country fix its internal problems, before they start messing around in others. America and Canada, united in a war production capacity, can defeat anyone. Maybe that's what they should focus on. Before they start the war.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by Fisherdan

A lot of you are referencing World War I and II. They are relevant, of course.

But these were wars that Europeans started and destroyed/weakened themselves over. America helped finish them and was much richer for it.

In my lifetime, America has started several wars… with the exception of the first Iraq war, all of them illegitimate and complete losses in the end. (If Afghanistan had stayed an in and out operation, like Iraq-1, then that would have been legitimate).

Now we are one year into a war in Europe, championed by the same groups of people who championed Iraq and Afghanistan. A war that continues to escalate, and doesn’t have a clear mandate as far as I can see. Are the Ukrainians going all the way to crimea? Where are the lines? A year ago we were talking about weapons to defend. Now Ukrainian pilots are training with F-16s.

Biden keeps talking about the struggle between autocratic regimes and democracies. How many democracies has the United States upset and replaced with autocracies? The Brazilian president just said no to supplying Ukraine. His country is just one example of those that democracy was crushed by the US.(1964)

I think it’s very fair to be sceptical about all this.

Only problem with the US in WW2 was they took too long to join the fight.

Their 875,000 casualties in those wars suggestions they paid a high price.

Fact is war can jump start an economy. Russia started this… maybe that’s their end game outside of capturing territory and increasing their political influence? I guess when countries see what they have to offer and say no is a fair reason to kill them, at least in Putin’s eyes.

But alas.

Some will go to great lengths to support Russia on all these threads. Whether for fun, taking an opposite view for argument sake, brainwashed by Russia, brainwashed from radical conspiracy click bait websites, hating democracy or just hating NATO.

Irrespective, it makes for interesting debate.

You’ve stated Russia was wrong for attacking. I agree conflicts are complicated.

I don’t see a new world order. The world isn’t flocking to Russia and certainly not China. Countries who have sought financial help from either have not benefited. They are not helping for humanitarian reasons. For them it is a win lose they seek. The IMF and China are both two pees in a pod.

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

It’s a world issue of farm ownership. Prices have been low in many crops and costs high so it makes family farms hard to live off of. Corporate farms have grown because of economies of scale.

No one is killing people in Ukraine over wheat. Putin wants land, wants power… Ukraines industrial base and farming and natural resources is just a fringe benefit.

The free world is opposing Russia attacking another country because they know it won’t stop there.

Ukraine is run by a Jewish person whose primary language is Russian. The Russian state media narrative you put forward is not believed. One could easily see the Wagner group as a fascist organization supported by Putin. There are fascist media personalities in Russia spreading hatred of Ukrainians. Putin’s own governments comment about removing Ukraine from the map shows a very distinct racist view of Ukraine by Putin regardless of so many familial ties between many Russians and Ukrainians.

I firmly believe many people with a power of decisions in the free world want to help Ukraine win so they don’t fall under the repressive Putin regime.

The most valuable resource in the world is freedom. We should never forget that.

Russian government lies almost all the time. People laughed when Lavrov stated Ukraine attacked Russia. They lie so much, control the media and internet so well, there is no population more impacted by propaganda than the Russian population.

Bloody well nailed it again!

[huntsfurfish]

Originally Posted by big_plinker

Ummm, there's a lot of 'misinformation', and speculation abounds, about the war in Ukraine.
But one thing that IS A FACT, is that the US is the primary funding for that war, monetarily and equipment wise. They're spending more than everyone else combined. Including Russia.
And the US has pretty much THE WORST track record when it comes to doing things for good, moral, reasons.

That alone should give everyone room for pause as to what's going on in Ukraine, and why.
It won't, but it should.
The only thing I do know is that the young and the innocent are paying with their lives for rich psychopaths and their sick games.

While the US has done some questionable things. It has been a good neighbor compared to Russia. The last war the US had with its northern neighbor was 1812-1814 almost 210 years ago and war with its southern neighbor was 1846-1848, thats 175 years ago. You shore as heck cant say that about Russia. They beat up an internal country or neighbor every decade or 2. I know which country I would want as a neighbor. The USA anytime. The world cant keep allowing bad behavior from Russia and need to stand up now. If they dont, nato will be drawn into a war with Russia and it wont be to far down the line.

And if Russia wins, it sets the wrong precedant for all the wanna be nuclear countries. We get nukes and we too can be bullies. And it will only encourage them that they can take more.

This is so very important people. Staying out of it would be a huge mistake. You may not want war but it can come to you whether you want it or not.