6.5 Shootout Comparison, How would you score it?

[260 Rem]

My 6.5 X 47L drives 130 Ber VLD(H) at 2850 from a 24” barrel.

[SakoShooter]

Originally Posted by chuck

Can someone tell me the draw back of the Creedmoor?

Well, when I was a kid there was this band that didn't get a lot of airplay, but was very popular with teenage boys who maybe had a bit of pent up aggresion, you could see their t-shirts everywhere but it was always the sort of nerdy kids. In other words, it was a badge of honour for many of us, we had a cool.band that was better than the "popular" music out there.

Then, in '90 or so....Metallica released their blockbuster "Black Album" and became the biggest band in the world.

This was fairly early days for the internet, and the fledging world wide qeb was FULL of hate sites built and maintained by kids who felt betrayed by their heroes who had gone "mainstream" by making the big time.

Some people just need to have something that's better than what the plebes like....that's why calibres like the .270 win get a certain ammount of hate from people who love the .280 rem for example.

Sure, you can argue the advantages of the .280 until you're blue in the face, but for most people, it's just about having something unique and "underground."

These same folks will argue that the .260 rem is somehow superior to the 6.5 creedmoor, even just because it lost the popularity contest, and will insist on a 6.5x47 or something because the creed is trash.


Say whatever you want, but anybody arguing that the swede beats the creed in any measurable way is just another "Megadeth is better anyways" 90's kid in grownup form.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

My 6.5 X 47L drives 130 Ber VLD(H) at 2850 from a 24” barrel.

In real world applications I can't see the swedes performance having any noticeable difference over the creed, 260rem, or for that matter the 6.5x47, on targets or game. To say there is no comparison is wishful thinking.

[Dubious]

Originally Posted by SakoShooter

Well, when I was a kid there was this band that didn't get a lot of airplay, but was very popular with teenage boys who maybe had a bit of pent up aggresion, you could see their t-shirts everywhere but it was always the sort of nerdy kids. In other words, it was a badge of honour for many of us, we had a cool.band that was better than the "popular" music out there.

Then, in '90 or so....Metallica released their blockbuster "Black Album" and became the biggest band in the world.

This was fairly early days for the internet, and the fledging world wide qeb was FULL of hate sites built and maintained by kids who felt betrayed by their heroes who had gone "mainstream" by making the big time.

Some people just need to have something that's better than what the plebes like....that's why calibres like the .270 win get a certain ammount of hate from people who love the .280 rem for example.

Sure, you can argue the advantages of the .280 until you're blue in the face, but for most people, it's just about having something unique and "underground."

These same folks will argue that the .260 rem is somehow superior to the 6.5 creedmoor, even just because it lost the popularity contest, and will insist on a 6.5x47 or something because the creed is trash.


Say whatever you want, but anybody arguing that the swede beats the creed in any measurable way is just another "Megadeth is better anyways" 90's kid in grownup form.

so your saying the swede is Metallica and the creed is Nickel Back in more modern terms?

[catnthehat]

Nickle Back??
Never heard of 'er
Cat

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Dubious

so your saying the swede is Metallica and the creed is Nickel Back in more modern terms?

Well there's my problem right there!

I like Metallica AND Nickleback!!

[Dubious]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Well there's my problem right there!

I like Metallica AND Nickleback!!

at least your not into ac/dc 30-06

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Dubious

at least your not into ac/dc 30-06

Whoa!

AC/DC is the best there ever was.

Although I've never owned a 30-06

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Looking on noslers reloading guide it looks like the Creedmoor would be right at the same speed, I'd consider them comparable.

That's a normal book load where Swede pressures are usually held to about 52,000-54,000 psi. Run the Swede with the same powder/bullet to 58 - 60,000 psi and then tell me how much better the CM is. Book loads are why the Swede appears to be the small dog so try and keep that in mind. Then run a 143 ELD-X through a Swede at the same higher pressures. The CM is a good cartridge, but not that good.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

That's a normal book load where Swede pressures are usually held to about 52,000-54,000 psi. Run the Swede with the same powder/bullet to 58 - 60,000 psi and then tell me how much better the CM is. Book loads are why the Swede appears to be the small dog so try and keep that in mind. Then run a 143 ELD-X through a Swede at the same higher pressures. The CM is a good cartridge, but not that good.

First off, I figure the creed is better than the Swede for what I wanted because it's a short action cartridge that is gaining so much popularity that finding quality factory ammo for cheap will soon be the norm. I never said it'll out perform the Swede ballistically, I said there's not enough difference between the two performance wise for the Swede to be a viable option nowadays. It was you who said there is no comparison between the magic Swede and the Creedmoor.

Another thing, even for reloaders the Creedmoor has several safe max loads published where as the Swede has very few max loads published. Sure you can keep adding powder until your bolt locks up then knock her back a few grains, but there's no guessing with the creed.

Why don't you want to post the speeds you're getting out of your Swede?

[1Heavyhitr]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Come on now, stop with the logic based on case capacity, the Creedmoor produces magic ballistics, when fed ammunition loaded with pixie dust and unicorn farts.

SHHHHHH Thaaaaats why my swede kills soooo well. My CZ550 will put factory loaded 140gr Nos AB's doing 2650 just under an inch if im making the right face and have killed as well as any max charged hand loads I've run out to 300 yards including a bull Moose. 6.5s are magic
I'm just glad im manly enough to shoot 1

[Beeman3]

Originally Posted by Smokinyotes

My 6.5x55 with a 130 accubond, 49gr R22 is doing 2805 according to my magnetospeed.

I am sure the 6.5X55 is a great round but the velocities I see just are not impressive. For example My hunting 6.5X47 shoots the 130 AccuBond at 2910 fps. My practice 6.5X47 (also used for hunting) drives a 130 Berger at 2980 fps. All this with only around 42 gr of H4350. Then if I really want to pick up performance I grab my 6.5 SHERMAN. 140 Berger at 3339 fps. I will stick to my little X47 that basically will run with the Creed and 260. OR my Sherman that runs with the 264 Win Mag and not far off the 26 Nosler while using WAY less powder.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

First off, I figure the creed is better than the Swede for what I wanted because it's a short action cartridge that is gaining so much popularity that finding quality factory ammo for cheap will soon be the norm. I never said it'll out perform the Swede ballistically, I said there's not enough difference between the two performance wise for the Swede to be a viable option nowadays. It was you who said there is no comparison between the magic Swede and the Creedmoor.

Another thing, even for reloaders the Creedmoor has several safe max loads published where as the Swede has very few max loads published. Sure you can keep adding powder until your bolt locks up then knock her back a few grains, but there's no guessing with the creed.

Why don't you want to post the speeds you're getting out of your Swede?

When it comes to published max loads, I don't blindly trust any of them, for any cartridge. I have seen too many cases of pressure signs with published manufacturers loads to trust any load without working then up. I have also seen them produce up to 200fps less than listed in the data, so they certainly were nowhere near a max load for my rifles. If all barrels and chambers , and all lots of components were identical, then all max loads in all manuals would also be identical, but that isn't the case. As such, there will always be some "guessing " , where published loads are concerned, regardless of the cartridge.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

When it comes to published max loads, I don't blindly trust any of them, for any cartridge. I have seen too many cases of pressure signs with published manufacturers loads to trust any load without working then up. I have also seen them produce up to 200fps less than listed in the data, so they certainly were nowhere near a max load for my rifles. If all barrels and chambers , and all lots of components were identical, then all max loads in all manuals would also be identical, but that isn't the case. As such, there will always be some "guessing " , where published loads are concerned, regardless of the cartridge.

There's a huge difference between looking at a max load then knocking it back a couple grains as a starting point than there is looking at a max load and deciding it could probably handle another 4 grains or so before things get dangerous.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to admit that the Creedmoor is obviously the better choice for a plethora of reasons. What makes the Swede the better choice? Other than the fact if you experiment long enough you might find a load that'll get 100fps over the Creedmoor, at which point I'd have to ask where anyone or any animal will notice that difference?

If you were to ask what makes the Creedmoor better, I'd start with its booming popularity, then the chambering offerings. So many rifles, twisted right, that allow you to stretch out the heavies. Then you have the quality factory ammo and it's availability. All the top quality brass manufacturers are on board. All these things matter way more than 100fps in my opinion.

Now if we could see 350fps gain over the Creedmoor, then I'd have to agree with you and Salavee, but I think it's your guy's sentimental attachment to the Swede that's got you guys all upset with the Creedmoor.

If I'm wrong, please point out where the Swede shines.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

There's a huge difference between looking at a max load then knocking it back a couple grains as a starting point than there is looking at a max load and deciding it could probably handle another 4 grains or so before things get dangerous.

I'm not sure why it's so hard to admit that the Creedmoor is obviously the better choice for a plethora of reasons. What makes the Swede the better choice? Other than the fact if you experiment long enough you might find a load that'll get 100fps over the Creedmoor, at which point I'd have to ask where anyone or any animal will notice that difference?

If you were to ask what makes the Creedmoor better, I'd start with its booming popularity, then the chambering offerings. So many rifles, twisted right, that allow you to stretch out the heavies. Then you have the quality factory ammo and it's availability. All the top quality brass manufacturers are on board. All these things matter way more than 100fps in my opinion.

Now if we could see 350fps gain over the Creedmoor, then I'd have to agree with you and Salavee, but I think it's your guy's sentimental attachment to the Swede that's got you guys all upset with the Creedmoor.

If I'm wrong, please point out where the Swede shines.

I was simply responding to your comments about published max loads, but since you want to discuss other factors, I don't use factory centerfire loads, so they are not a factor that I consider. Nobody that is really serious about shooting would judge a cartridge based on available factory loads, because people that are serious, don't shoot factory loads. I choose a cartridge, and in the case of the 6.5x55, I purchase Lapua cases, and develop loads. Both of my rifles have a 1 in 8" twist which is suitable for any bullet that I would ever consider using.The Sako has an action just long enough to load the COL that works for me, and the T-3 has a long action regardless of the cartridge, so choosing a shorter cartridge for a T-3 saves no weight. Both of my rifles are modern rifles, and I use modern cases, so I use modern loads for them. Both rifles provide much better than average accuracy for factory rifles, with very tolerable recoil, so what would I gain by changing to a Creedmoor? The only difference would be slightly less velocity, and slightly less recoil, neither of which would be noticeable to me. I didn't bother with the Creedmoor, for the same reason that I didn't bother with the 6.5x300, that being that neither would offer any advantage over the cartridges that I already own.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I was simply responding to your comments about published max loads, but since you want to discuss other factors, I don't use factory centerfire loads, so they are not a factor that I consider. I choose a cartridge, and in the case of the 6.5x55, I purchase Lapua cases, and develop loads. Both of my rifles have a 1 in 8" twist which is suitable for any bullet that I would ever consider using.The Sako has an action just long enough to load the COL that works for me, and the T-3 has a long action regardless of the cartridge, so choosing a shorter cartridge for a T-3 saves no weight. Both of my rifles are modern rifles, and I use modern cases, so I use modern loads for them. Both rifles provide much better than average accuracy for factory rifles, with very tolerable recoil, so what would I gain by changing to a Creedmoor? The only difference would be slightly less velocity, and slightly less recoil, neither of which would be noticeable to me. I didn't bother with the Creedmoor, for the same reason that I didn't bother with the 6.5x300, that being that neither would offer any advantage over the cartridges that I already own.

That's the thing, you already own them. The guys that own them are most likely reloaders, and if they aren't then they're missing the bus so to speak. I wouldn't suggest selling a Swede to buy a Creedmoor but I'd recommend a Creedmoor over the Swede to anyone buying a new rifle.

[Stinky Coyote]

Sure turned into a Swede vs Creedmoor thread lol. A compliment to the Creedmoor for sure, the Swede is and always has been an over achiever.

Swede has the legendary reputation from doing so well for so long, even on things most would never consider shooting. Cool Factor nod goes to the Swede.

Swede needs reloading and modern bolt action rifles to make it sing to modern potential and then it can slightly out horsepower the Creedmoor. If considering original spec and design the Creedmoor kills the Swede.

Creedmoor does it with short action, Swede needs a long action. A testament to the Creedmoor again for nearly duplicating the swede's 'modern' performance in a short action.

I'll say it again, the 6.5 Creedmoor is the modern Swede, it will go on to become far more popular than the Swede ever was or will be. There are reasons for that.

As Chuck touched on about the Creedmoor fixing the .260 rem issues by designing it in from the beginning. The Creedmoor also fixes the shortcomings of the Swede. It's like the Creedmoor took them and blended them together. The Creedmoor's versatility doesn't end there. It takes on a gold standard like the .308 which is loved for a huge variety of reasons and applies the same modern fixes and now it does everything the .308 does and then whoops it's ass by excelling in a few more areas that are important to shooters/hunters/military now. So it's like all three of those cartridges were just replaced in one fell swoop by the Creedmoor.

Really the 6.5 CM could be called the 6.5 Universal, the 6.5 SweNatoRem, the 6.5 Oracle, the 6.5 OneAndOnly, the 6.5 Deity, the 6.5 ShizzleForYourNizzle.

Anyone want to get back to the 6.5 article and make some lists? lol

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

That's the thing, you already own them. The guys that own them are most likely reloaders, and if they aren't then they're missing the bus so to speak. I wouldn't suggest selling a Swede to buy a Creedmoor but I'd recommend a Creedmoor over the Swede to anyone buying a new rifle.

Well. I'll be darned. I could almost buy what you said above except for one thing. If you want to crown the CM as the versatility 6.5 cartridge of all time, teach it to handle 150 to 160 gr projectiles. Until then ...

[Norwest Alta]

26 nosler
6.5x300wby
264 wm
6.5x55
The rest in what ever order you'd like imo. Much prefer hp then barrel life and if the price of ammo was a determining factor I wouldn't be buying a $3500 gun. Seems fickle to me to be worried about a extra $50 or what ever it is when a guy throws that kinda loot at a rifle.

I do have to wonder if these 6.5 cm turns out to be flop in Kurts eyes will he swallow his pride and tell us about it's inadequacy? Seems to me that the 280 ai was the greatest thing but does not cut the mustard anymore for some reason.

[catnthehat]

Until I wring mine out I'm nit listing anything as better than another fir anything
Cat

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Well. I'll be darned. I could almost buy what you said above except for one thing. If you want to crown the CM as the versatility 6.5 cartridge of all time, teach it to handle 150 to 160 gr projectiles. Until then ...

It is really great to be hung up and defend a pet cartridge but please supply some facts to show why 150-160 grain bullets make the 6.5 x 55 superior to the CM. You also did not answer my question about how far the 140 VLD hunting bullet has to be seated out to reach the lands.

Smokinyotes gave us some actual info on his 6.5x55 getting a 130 AB to 2805 with 49 grains of RL 22 which is likely a compressed load. The Nosler manual shows RL 19 at 47.5 grains(99% case fill) getting 2775 with Hunter getting 2837 with a 91% fill so they may be a better choice. However the Nosler manual shows 9 loads for the 129/130 grain bullets, in the CM, that run over 2810. RL 17 at 98% with 43.5 grains gets 2953. The fact is that extra case capacity does not always get the highest velocities with the least pressure, a fact that I have been trying to explain to people for close to 30 years.

One can buy Hornady factory ammo for the CM that gets 2700 fps which is good to 565 yards and 380 yards if one considers 1200 ft lbs for light game and 1500 ft lbs for heavy game. The Best factory ammo that I can find for the 6.5x55 is Hornady LM in 129 and 140 grain and the 140 grain is good to 415 yards for light game and 280 for heavy game so the CM gets the nod by a large margin. Sako make a 156 RN that they claim 2625 MV which runs is good to 335 yards for light game and 230 yards for heavy game. Unless you know of some factory ammunition, or handload, that performs better than what I have found then please present us with some facts.

I have no intention of using either cartridge although they both have their place but if I were the 6.5 CM would get the nod from the information I have seen so far. Lets continue this thread using facts rather than emotion and we all may learn something before another good thread gets shut down by ignorance.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Norwest Alta

26 nosler
6.5x300wby
264 wm
6.5x55
The rest in what ever order you'd like imo. Much prefer hp then barrel life and if the price of ammo was a determining factor I wouldn't be buying a $3500 gun. Seems fickle to me to be worried about a extra $50 or what ever it is when a guy throws that kinda loot at a rifle.

I do have to wonder if these 6.5 cm turns out to be flop in Kurts eyes will he swallow his pride and tell us about it's inadequacy? Seems to me that the 280 ai was the greatest thing but does not cut the mustard anymore for some reason.

When you're spending $5k on a custom built rifle by a legend who may never take another order to build another rifle, barrel life means a lot. I don't want a rebarreled rifle, I want one built by the man himself that will last my son's lifetime. I'll save my barrel burners for cookie cutter rifles.

As far as the 280ai goes, it is the greatest big game cartridge ever made but it's overkill for coyotes. Are you saying only your nosler 26 is good and all your other rifles are inadequate?

I had a 260rem and a Swede, sold both to forum members, I know what the Creedmoor will do. I don't need 70gr of powder to kill an animal and I proved it on an elk with a 129gr pill out of the 260 at close to the 300yd mark.

I figured out a while back that you don't need a big gun if you're a good shot. Some people still need a big gun tho

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

It is really great to be hung up and defend a pet cartridge but please supply some facts to show why 150-160 grain bullets make the 6.5 x 55 superior to the CM. You also did not answer my question about how far the 140 VLD hunting bullet has to be seated out to reach the lands.

Smokinyotes gave us some actual info on his 6.5x55 getting a 130 AB to 2805 with 49 grains of RL 22 which is likely a compressed load. The Nosler manual shows RL 19 at 47.5 grains(99% case fill) getting 2775 with Hunter getting 2837 with a 91% fill so they may be a better choice. However the Nosler manual shows 9 loads for the 129/130 grain bullets, in the CM, that run over 2810. RL 17 at 98% with 43.5 grains gets 2953. The fact is that extra case capacity does not always get the highest velocities with the least pressure, a fact that I have been trying to explain to people for close to 30 years.

One can buy Hornady factory ammo for the CM that gets 2700 fps which is good to 565 yards and 380 yards if one considers 1200 ft lbs for light game and 1500 ft lbs for heavy game. The Best factory ammo that I can find for the 6.5x55 is Hornady LM in 129 and 140 grain and the 140 grain is good to 415 yards for light game and 280 for heavy game so the CM gets the nod by a large margin. Sako make a 156 RN that they claim 2625 MV which runs is good to 335 yards for light game and 230 yards for heavy game. Unless you know of some factory ammunition, or handload, that performs better than what I have found then please present us with some facts.

I have no intention of using either cartridge although they both have their place but if I were the 6.5 CM would get the nod from the information I have seen so far. Lets continue this thread using facts rather than emotion and we all may learn something before another good thread gets shut down by ignorance.

Icelund .. I'm not sure if a pic will provide you with any useful info but you seem to like pix so I'll give it a try.
This is a HDY 140 Match, using my favorite 6.5 powder. Barrel is an RKS 8 gain twist at 24 " and the load is not at max pressure.

If a CM beats it, that's OK but it might give you an idea about the capabilities of a modern 6.5 Swede.
So yes, lets stick with facts. Also, try and eliminate the word ignorance from any further dialogue.

[markg]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

My 6.5 X 47L drives 130 Ber VLD(H) at 2850 from a 24” barrel.

I am getting 2970 out of mine with the 123 scenar's and 30" Kriger 1/8 with 36.5 gas of Varget. I have gotten over 3000 with 37.7 but the bolt gets a little sticky

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Icelund .. I'm not sure if a pic will provide you with any useful info but you seem to like pix so I'll give it a try.
This is a HDY 140 Match, using my favorite 6.5 powder. Barrel is an RKS 8 gain twist at 24 " and the load is not at max pressure.

If a CM beats it, that's OK but it might give you an idea about the capabilities of a modern 6.5 Swede.
So yes, lets stick with facts. Also, try and eliminate the word ignorance from any further dialogue.

You're shooting 140's out of your Swede, I don't know why you want to talk about 160's in regards to the creed?

A 140gr bullet and a muzzle velocity of 2808fps and you think there is no comparison between the Swede and the Creed???

I don't have my Creedmoor in my hands yet, but with 143gr factory ammo rated at 2700 fps I'd be willing to bet you could add at least 50fps without trouble to a taylored load. 50-100fps is comparable in my books. I'm 100% positive there isn't an animal on the planet who could tell the difference!

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

You're shooting 140's out of your Swede, I don't know why you want to talk about 160's in regards to the creed?

A 140gr bullet and a muzzle velocity of 2808fps and you think there is no comparison between the Swede and the Creed???

I don't have my Creedmoor in my hands yet, but with 143gr factory ammo rated at 2700 fps I'd be willing to bet you could add at least 50fps without trouble to a taylored load. 50-100fps is comparable in my books. I'm 100% positive there isn't an animal on the planet who could tell the difference!

Sure I shoot 140's. I also shoot 160 RN Woodleighs. Also shoot 143 ELD X and 129 SST's. Why not ? The Swede does them all.
Once you actually shoot your CM, I'm sure it will all come together for you. What a Game animal thinks of all this is irrelevant.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Sure I shoot 140's. I also shoot 160 RN Woodleighs. Also shoot 143 ELD X and 129 SST's. Why not ? The Swede does them all.
Once you actually shoot your CM, I'm sure it will all come together for you. What a Game animal thinks of all this is irrelevant.

Before I shoot my Creedmoor I've got one question for you,

I've got a 3" mag box in my rifle, do you think it'll be comparable to your Swede?

[Stinky Coyote]

Well reloading does look appealing. For the 6.5 Grendel seems no issue to get 123 gr pills at 2600-2650 out of 20" barreled gas or bolt guns and 2700-2750 out of 24" gas or bolt guns. Factory ammo rated at 2580(24").

If any cartridge gets me reloading it will be the Grendel, such a fun round. Have 3 now, me and the boys. We will knock down plenty of stuff with them, at normal hunting ranges, will be a blast to plink and dial up, will be a blast for calling predators. Take a long ass time to need a new barrel too.

And you guys are getting excited about Creedmoor's, don't drink the Grendel Kool-aid.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

Before I shoot my Creedmoor I've got one question for you,

I've got a 3" mag box in my rifle, do you think it'll be comparable to your Swede?

lol .... not sure. That will likely depend on what bullet you want to shoot at the correct seating depth.

My Swede mags measure 3.4 and 3.3.

[Pathfinder76]

I’m thinking I screwed up. I just built a rifle that could have been chambered in any cartridge I wanted. I chose the 6.5 Creedmoor. Oh the regret. It’s eating me alive. I should have looked into this more.