how does an animal die after shots in different body areas

[drake]

Thanks for all you do Dr. Thunderbird......but (with all due respect of course).....its probably time to go back to med school.

[thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Dr.Dan

Any wound through the chest has the potential to cause a tension pneumothorax. However, in my experience they developed large sucking chest wounds which were true pneumothoraces ie) lungs immediately completely collapsed, not a tension pneumo.

So a tension pneumo is a potential lethal event, but I'm suggesting only a minority of lung shots would lead to this. The tension pneumo process is relatively slow. I think most lung shots result in death much faster.


Bleeding from lungs occurs because there are so many vessels packed into it that a bullet going through the lung will hit significant vessels. Unless you hit just the edge, it's unlikely to hit just parenchyma and not vasculature. It doesn't need to be the main pulmonary artery, lots and lots of the branches are big enough to cause quick exanguination.

Thank you for the reply, you are making valid point. It seems tension pneumothorax is not the common way to die after lung shot.

[Cowtown guy]

The only valid debate out of all of this real world experience is one? Really?

How many deer/elk/moose have you killed? For the 10th time I'm sure it has been asked. Where are you getting these ideas that you are stating as facts? Hey for all I know, you may have killed hundreds of critters and are actually sharing facts instead of ideas.

I'll say it again. I have been directly involved with well over 100, likely close to double that many kills. I can offer you what I" know", not assume to be true. If you want to learn that is.

[thunderbird]

Originally Posted by drake

Thanks for all you do Dr. Thunderbird......but (with all due respect of course).....its probably time to go back to med school.

Nice one, you made me laugh, it is interesting to me to read about something I love and learn about it even if some see it not practical and useless. But I think it will make it richer experience.

[gitrdun]

Could you guys come to some kind of conclusion please? So that I know where to aim. Otherwise I can't go hunting....

[thunderbird]

Originally Posted by Cowtown guy

The only valid debate out of all of this real world experience is one? Really?

How many deer/elk/moose have you killed? For the 10th time I'm sure it has been asked. Where are you getting these ideas that you are stating as facts? Hey for all I know, you may have killed hundreds of critters and are actually sharing facts instead of ideas.

I'll say it again. I have been directly involved with well over 100, likely close to double that many kills. I can offer you what I" know", not assume to be true. If you want to learn that is.

I am not here to teach people how to hunt, it seems you have realy good experience, I would lke to listen.

Can you point out what other valid debates you mean??

It seems lung shot bleeds well from what I read. It seems my theory about tension pneumothorax is not the common way to kill animal after lung shot.

In my main post I said I will do refinement, here we are.

So what else you see as valid debate??

[thunderbird]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Could you guys come to some kind of conclusion please? So that I know where to aim. Otherwise I can't go hunting....

Do not go out hunting this season, wait till we reach a conclusion.

[Redfrog]

I'm curious as to why you avoid a simple question.

How many animals have you killed and how long have you been hunting?

[nekred]

Ok scientifically speaking....lung shots!...

the heart is two double chambered pumps..... one side pumps solely to the lungs, the other side the rest of the body, so that means for every heartbeat 1/2 gose to lungs, other half to rest of body....

so if the lungs are only a big bag of air where does all the blood go?

Using an arrow for an example....

The lungs are not like a single chambered ballon, they are filled with many small microscopic chambers where oxygen and co2 are exchanged through capillaries. When an arrow hits the lung does not deflate because it has been popped.... but because the chest cavities seal has been breached an air is entering the cavity reducing available expansion. In addition because the lungs contain so much blood this rapidly leaks out into the chest cavity as well adding further pressure to lungs deflating them more....

everything dies eventually from lack of oxygen to brain. Lung shots are very deadly because of blood loss as well as removing effectiveness of oxygen transfer in lungs due to collapsing which also suffocates animal as well.

How far can you go if the wind is knocked out of you? Lungs are also a big target which is why we promote this area so hard for archery....

As for blood in meat.... blood is only contained in blood vessels. The "red" in red meat is the muscle type or protein... Think of this why is chicken or white meat fish have white meat when their blood is red too!....

The reason for bleeding is that blood will clot over time if it does not flow. clotted blood in meat is not pleasant. Blood is also an emetic. More blood drains from gravity than heart beat.... the heart pumps blood TO the meat... cutting the carotid which carries blood to the brain only reduces blood available to got to meat.... draining blood from meat happens with gravity more, and most effective way to drain blood is.... by cutting blood vessels in an organ that exclusively gets blood from the heart.... THE LUNGS!... or take out the pump HEART all together and put a hole in it that drains outside the carcass...

Arteries do not have valves thus blood can backflow under gravity.... veins have one way valves and blood moves through veins by gravity, or muscle movements....

mammal bodes are designed to go into a position when unconscious to help blood flow to heart... through gravity as much as possible.... which is another reason why a lungshot is so effective.

For a drop right there shot you have to destroy the ability of an animal to move which means taking out CNS or the structure... i.e. major supportive bones... (shoulders).... however taking out shoulders ruins meat as it drives blood into the muscles with hydrostatic energy (not an arrow)....

The cons are a CNS shot is a small target....brain or neck... a High shoulder shot is a bigger target and also takes out vtals such as lungs, and if you shoot low.... you still have a vital shot.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Could you guys come to some kind of conclusion please? So that I know where to aim. Otherwise I can't go hunting....

I knew it would come to this - take that 30-06 and punch something in The lungs , and do a complete autopsy .
I'm sure you will find that the result was a dead critter due to a lung shot!
Cat

[nekred]

Discussing theoretical with those who have done the practical, usually does not end well for the theoretician

kind of like how according to aeronautic theory a bumblebee should not be able to fly...

[nekred]

Go to ABC's of first aid as for order of danger....

Airway, Breathing Circulation...deadly Bleeding....

Lung shot affects all elements....

[Hotwheels81]

Originally Posted by vcmm

Back at you
Poultry and pigs are stunned then bled. Cattle are knocked or shot.
Maybe a few people who do this for a living will pipe in

http://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/r...3.html#docCont



79. Every food animal that is slaughtered, other than a muskox, caribou or reindeer that is a game animal that is slaughtered elsewhere than in a registered establishment, shall, before being bled,
(a) be rendered unconscious in a manner that ensures that it does not regain consciousness before death, by one of the following methods:
(i) by delivering a blow to the head by means of a penetrating or non-penetrating mechanical device in a manner that causes immediate loss of consciousness,
(ii) by exposure to a gas or a gas mixture in a manner that causes a rapid loss of consciousness, or
(iii) by the application of an electrical current in a manner that causes immediate loss of consciousness; or
(b) be killed by one of the methods set out in paragraph (a) or, in the case of a bird or a domesticated rabbit, by rapid decapitation.
SOR/93-160, s. 9; SOR/99-369, s. 4; SOR/2014-151, s. 11.



Depends on who's doing the killin.... I've witnessed cattle being stunned and the throat being cut, a lot less stressful than a CBG.

[Hotwheels81]

Heres a NZ slaughterhouse, might not want the kiddies seeing this...


http://youtu.be/YlH1oat9g_E

[Lefty-Canuck]

Majority of cattle I have seen put down involved a .22lr or .22mag between the eyes and up a couple inches.

Then the throat was slit quickly while the heart was still going.

LC

[Hotwheels81]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Majority of cattle I have seen put down involved a .22lr or .22mag between the eyes and up a couple inches.

Then the throat was slit quickly while the heart was still going.

LC

I'm not sayin it's right or wrong and it's been done like that on the farm and up till the 80s my grandfather put .22 shorts behind the ears of thousands of hogs at blue mountain packers...

Now we have piles of rules about guns in the workplace... What used to cost $0.02 now represents a major investment and drove a bunch of small folk outta business...

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Hotwheels81

I'm not sayin it's right or wrong and it's been done like that on the farm and up till the 80s my grandfather put .22 shorts behind the ears of thousands of hogs at blue mountain packers...

Now we have piles of rules about guns in the workplace... What used to cost $0.02 now represents a major investment and drove a bunch of small folk outta business...

I know at a butcher shop my Dads buddy owns in Ontario he still uses a .22lr and a "knock box" (squeeze). His facility is certified organic and kosher.

LC

[wwbirds]

I dont know what Paul would know about this as he has been a butcher for over 20 years operating Vulcan County Meat Market and most of the locals ask him to come kill with his mobile facilility on the farms. guess that is practical real world experience and theorists will have more to talk about without his input.

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by gitrdun

Could you guys come to some kind of conclusion please? So that I know where to aim. Otherwise I can't go hunting....

Shoot it in the *****... Extremely unreliable...

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

Majority of cattle I have seen put down involved a .22lr or .22mag between the eyes and up a couple inches.

Then the throat was slit quickly while the heart was still going.

LC

When you're doing a lot of them, the 22 lr can become extremely dangerous simply by numbers that aren't knocked out by the 22lr... Hence why I prefer a 44 mag, or 45-70 for the big buggers... 22 mag is great on pigs and sheep... 44 mag will completely evacuate the contents of the sheep's skull...

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by amosfella

When you're doing a lot of them, the 22 lr can become extremely dangerous simply by numbers that aren't knocked out by the 22lr... Hence why I prefer a 44 mag, or 45-70 for the big buggers... 22 mag is great on pigs and sheep... 44 mag will completely evacuate the contents of the sheep's skull...

My Dad worked kill floor for many years...he never had to use anything bigger as far as I know or recall.

LC

[nekred]

even buffalo drop to a 22 lr.

key is proper placement....

[Deo101]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I know at a butcher shop my Dads buddy owns in Ontario he still uses a .22lr and a "knock box" (squeeze). His facility is certified organic and kosher.

LC

Kosher can't be done with a .22 from my understanding of it. It's a very strict process that includes blessings from a Rabi...If He's doing it a .22 and calling it Kosher I'd be willing to bet there's a lot of Jews that would be unhappy.

http://www.wikihow.com/Properly-Slau...thod-Shechitah

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by Deo101

Kosher can't be done with a .22 from my understanding of it. It's a very strict process that includes blessings from a Rabi...If He's doing it a .22 and calling it Kosher I'd be willing to bet there's a lot of Jews that would be unhappy.

http://www.wikihow.com/Properly-Slau...thod-Shechitah

I should have made it more clear...the facility is approved

LC

[falconmade]

Originally Posted by Deo101

Every time I've lung shot a deer with .270 130grains the heart was also gone. I'd bet this is the case with most larger calibers within a normal range. The energy alone seems to explode the lung and the heart....in my experience. That said I've both seen deer drop immediately after and I've also seem them casually walk 50yds into the tree's to fall over.

You're right

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by wwbirds

I dont know what Paul would know about this as he has been a butcher for over 20 years operating Vulcan County Meat Market and most of the locals ask him to come kill with his mobile facilility on the farms. guess that is practical real world experience and theorists will have more to talk about without his input.

Yeah, like what the heck would Paul know after holding a mobile killing license for 20 years?!

There is also the problem of post regulations for different Provinces or Countries, they may not parallel our Provincial or federal regulations.
Cat

[Deo101]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

I should have made it more clear...the facility is approved

LC

I thought I may have misread you right after I hit reply...maybe the OP is trying to justify a kill as being Kosher...otherwise I have know idea where He's going with this.

To the OP. I don't think anyone is arguing with you that if you sever the spinal cord the animal will drop...we're all saying that no heart, no lungs and an animal can still travel a long ways.

[Speckle55]

I have had this happen with some of my harvests

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrostatic_shock

if the animal run's away leave it for 1 hour loss of blood pressure and other organs shutting down will end its life ...even increased blood pressure kills

but it really bothers me is when I am walking on grass and I am so in tuned with nature I hear their screams as I crush them and then look at the green blood on my hiking boots .. such is the collateral damage in everything we do only we pick Cecil's to champion

ironic hey

circle of life

Food for Thought

David

[amosfella]

Originally Posted by Lefty-Canuck

My Dad worked kill floor for many years...he never had to use anything bigger as far as I know or recall.

LC

Yes, but I'm not working with a chute either... Usually loose in a corral...

[Lefty-Canuck]

Originally Posted by amosfella

Yes, but I'm not working with a chute either... Usually loose in a corral...

Loose in a corral is a separate game for sure

LC