running coyotes with dogs?

[jacob1202]

thaganch.... this ones for you partner... just keep on keepin on... bein all ethical and stuff... we wont mention the countless number of animals youve prolly gutshot in your life... can u imagine the terror of that? thats whats wrong with this damn world today... everybody is always so worried about what everyone else is doing... if there is a coyote on my property its gonna die with whatever is closest to hand... i usually have the dogs with me and cuz of people like u its an abomination to carry a rifle around in your truck anymore... cuz its apparently UNETHICAL

[Albertacoyotecaller]

I grew up first hunting coyotes behind dogs. mainly whippets in SW Ontario. This is a fun but hard way to hunt yotes.

Like some others suggested, try calling. Much more effective in my opinion.

Greg

[KI-UTE]

Sorry fellers, I don't buy all this BS.

I know plenty of houndsmen from the fur boom era back when it was legal and they all bragged about all the trucks they bought and smashed up to nothing chasing coyotes with their hound box in the back off the truck. If you are hound hunting with a truck, you do not idle up to a coyote. Truck frames bent, banana'd even

Not that all hound hunting is unethical, just the guys that chase the heck out of the coyotes with their trucks are.

There's usually a good apple or two in the bunch

Way to support yer sport tho, gotta hand it to ya

[Erik]

I don't frequent the trapping thread too often, but I caught the title of this post in the main thread and it interested me.

I'd like to throw my support behind houndsmen, as I own beagles that I want to track hare. I'm probably sticking my neck out there for some abuse, but I do believe that one can conduct and ethical hunt with hounds. I can appreciate the reasons that it is illegal to hunt big game with hounds, but for varmint species I don't think that it should be a problem,

I have heard that the success ratio for rabbit hunting is about 20-40%, that is that of every 10 rabbits that the hound tracks, only a few get shot, either because the hound finds another scent track or the shooter can't get a clean shot. Though it improves your odds of getting your quarry, it is not as guaranteed as many believe and on top of that when hunting for these varmint species there is usually a boatload of these animals in the same area, so the hounds are quite susceptible to tracking multiple quarries. The reason I love Beagling as much as I do has more to do enjoying a day out with my hounds, then banging off a few hare or whatever. If they tracked a hudred rabbits and I got none, I'd still be happy; equally I would be happy if they tracked nothing and there were a hudred rabbits all around (though I'd have to question myself as a handler, or if they were sick or somthing!!). I imagine other houndmen have similar reasons for using hounds in their hunt, whether sight or scent hounds and rabbit or coyote etc.

Something that is critical to ethical hunting with hounds, is the ability to control your hounds and call them off when you have decided against shooting the animal, for whatever reason (usually because hound is too close...but could be because you let a few go out of fair chase principle if you want to make a case for that). I practice whistle training almost every day with my hounds for this reason. Similar ideas apply to sight hounds that are used for coyotes and such.

And I totally disagree with the idea of running down coyotes with a truck, let alone any other species. Just my personal opinion, don't know the rules on this, but that is very unethical.

[Vindalbakken]

The only trucks that get beat up and bent are owned by the wahoo's that didn't have hounds. In the heyday of the fur buying some guys took hundreds of 'yotes a year with their pack of hounds. They had the same truck and dog box the whole time. Outside of fur season the dog box came off and it was their regular truck.

Predatoredge - your blueticks and coonhounds etc. will likely not be fast enough to make good coyote hounds. You need greyhounds and a kill dog. Most guys used Irish Wolfhounds for that. They weren't as fast, but the greyhounds will bowl the coyote over and the Irish will catch up. Game over.

[KI-UTE]

The hound guys that I locally knew had the worst beat up truck, they were the guys with the banana truck.

You see the coyote 1/2 mile away. What do you do? You sure don't turn the dogs loose yet correct?

You are forced to cut the distance down with the truck if you want to be successful.

This act would qualify as chasing/molesting wildlife with a motor vehicle.

Or do you forget that coyote and keep driving on until you find one that is stupid and just stands there while you idle your truck up to it? Perhaps you manage to find the odd coyote in 10,000 that is deaf... and looking the other way???

Coyotes can be hunted ethically and legally with hounds, but you have to take the use of the truck out of the equation.

Another houndsman that I met and spoke at length with hunted coyotes from horseback trailing hounds as he went. A very ethical way to hunt with hounds Like I said, there's gotta always be a good apple in the box somewhere.

I know of many many houndsmen, talked at length with many of them. Very few would not use a truck to chase coyotes. If you accelerate your truck towards a coyote with a hound box in the back of the truck, then you are chasing coyotes with a truck. Molesting wildlife with a motor vehicle comprises an infraction.

The typical houndsman that I talked to did this.

1)- spot a coyote in the distance

2)- accelerate the motor vehicle rapidly

3)- catch up to coyote with truck

4)- slam on brakes

5)- crank steering wheel in such manner that truck slides/spins 180 degrees, in doing so dogs can visually see the coyote and are running/pointed in the direction of the coyote without confusion when they are released from the box.

6)- yank rope on dog box, dogs come out of the box and coyote is typically are 100 to 200 yards from truck or less

from this point on the dogs perform the ethical part of the hunt. However prior to this point the hunter has incurred an infraction.

There's nothing wrong with hunting coyotes with dogs, just there should be no use of trucks involved with the act to ensure it is done in compliance with the law.

[Vindalbakken]

I am not the authority on hunting with hounds, but I do know 3 different guys who did it and hunted with two of them. They ran their hounds from a truck. The dogs had half doors so they could hang their heads out - most of the time they had the coyote spotted before the driver did. There was no confusion on the part of the dogs when those doors opened. They had carpet hanging down the side of the truck so the dogs could get traction coming out of the boxes and not scratch the truck. And yes, they would turn the hounds loose at 1/2 mile. And no, they did not chase the yotes with the truck - that is what they had the dogs for. All three of them had the same pack composition - chase dogs who had zero blood lust and a kill dog who was big enough to get the job done.

So don't extrapolate your peculiar circumstance to the whole of the population.

[fjhoward]

So if I have this right we all agree chasing coyotes with trucks is wrong. FYI I have never seen coyotes chased with dogs..........but I have seen where lots have been chased by trucks (That's what the rip and tear tracks in my feilds indicate anyway). What happened did they leave their dogs at home? Sorry had to get smart there..........

[KI-UTE]

Lots of people with guns chase coyotes with trucks too.

There's especially lots of stupid people with guns in the early part of trapping season, see a coyote in a trap and he gets the 12 gauge to the head at point blank.

Any other observations we can make?

A half mile would be quite the distance for a hound to spot a coyote. It was explained to me that hounds are stupid and are sight hunters. A half mile dump dogs? I have my serious doubts. Smells very fishy. Coyote goes thru brush and sight hunting dogs would be off the game.

Wheres the real hound guys? Do you dump your dogs at a half mile, or 3/4 mile, or 1 mile or 2. And now I'm the one getting catty, eh? Those who are jumping up and down angry, please explain the chronological order of real events as it happens. And none of this "we dump our dogs at 1/2 mile" funny-business!

[KBF]

I didnt think hunting coyotes with a dog of any sort or method was legal in Alberta, not even to be used as a decoy.?

[predatorzedge]

thanks vindalbakken for the pointers on which dogs to use i will definately keep in mind of the greys and irish. I have the bluetick walker cross because i was reading throughout the internet that they would be better off for the willows an swamp spruce around my area and the odd field i can see why in the open a guy would want greyhounds ccause my hound isnt fast and kinda clumsy still 9 weeks old today. I want to use my hounds for the problem coyotes that are now call shy and bait shy if I can obtain a predator control permit.

Kiyute- As for the argueing you keep bringing to this thread please just back off, like I said before ya wanna argue start a thread with everything you disagree with an if anyone would like to argue with you on anything in your thread so be it but grow up an act your age instead of your shoe size. An I honestly cant see a trapper walking up to a bloody coyote thats snared at point blank range and pull the trigger, buckshot bbs whatever it maybe would blow a hole the size of a fist out the other side making for very poor hides to sell, honestly your full of it so grab your shovel an start shoveling it.

Also why can a hound not see a coyote at 1/2 mile when a coyote can spot a human at 1/2 mile an start running your logic has no rhyme or reason but complete bull, back your facts before shootin it off like a spoiled kid in a candy store.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by KBF

I didnt think hunting coyotes with a dog of any sort or method was legal in Alberta, not even to be used as a decoy.?

I believe written permission from landowner for predator control is required.

[Vindalbakken]

Originally Posted by KI-UTE

Coyote goes thru brush and sight hunting dogs would be off the game.

That is the problem with running sight hounds. One fellow had bred some redbone into his dogs and kept the pups but none of them showed any interest in scent tracking. He didn't get to continue the idea - new rules on hounds and depressed fur prices.

Originally Posted by KI-UTE

And none of this "we dump our dogs at 1/2 mile" funny-business!

The only funny business is you. The real hound guys are pretty much out of business now because of ignorant folks such as yourself with emotional knee-jerks rather than rational thought.

[Scar270]

Most of the coyotes we got were using baits, farmers set out baits for us in locations we could sneak up to with a truck, if a coyote was present we let the hounds go. Certainly the coyotes heard the truck coming and often were already leaving, but they didn't take off on the dead run at the first sign of a truck, and were often still within 400 yards of the truck, although depending on locations the hounds can certainly make a longer chase.

As to sight hunters, I don't know my dogs that well, all we ever used was greyhounds, even as kill dogs, I found they had about 40% success on tracking a yote through a bush, a lot depended on the size of the bush etc. In a stubble field with just a few bushy patches they had good success, in pasture with thicker larger bush it wasn't as good.

KI-UTE, sounds to me like you completely singling out hound hunters as the only type of people who ever chased a coyote in a truck, and then trying to make the argument that all hound hunters do that. I hunted with grandpa for years and don't remember him ever damaging a truck, yet I know lots of deer hunters who spend lots of money every year repairing damage to their trucks.

In my area driving hell bent across a field after a yote is a good way to write off a truck, we pretty much stuck to the roads, and since coyotes don't tend to run down the roads, I don't know how you figure we chased them with the truck. We usually only left the beaten path to go collect the hounds and the yote, slowly picking our way across the field.

[jakebrake]

Hi everyone.I'm one of the guys that used to chase coyotes with hounds,I quit about 15 years ago.I used to use greyhound and irish cross, when I moved to the peace country nobody used dogs up here to chase coyotes.The first few years the coyotes would stand waiting to whip the farmers farm dog and buy the time they realized what was comming at them well it was to late for the coyote.If you have a good killing dog all you will have is a few small holes in the neck area to sew up.I used to love hunting with hounds and the dogs loved it to and it wasn't only about catching coyotes it was the love of the dogs also, to see which was the fastest hounds and alot of the areas I hunted had cattle and most wanted the coyotes gone.Coyotes need to be controlled and right not many people don't have the time to hunt them, in my area the coyotes are getting very brave and comming in the yards and killing cats and fighting with the dogs (not greyhounds)as you can tell I'm not a coyote lover and it will remain that way.

[predatorzedge]

wish it were legal an not such a gong show to do it

[KI-UTE]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

I believe written permission from landowner for predator control is required.

Wrong answer sonny, I thought you were arguing from an authoritative perspective.

I believe the correct response is that you need a damage permit issued by SRD. Did we not cover that one quite some time ago?

[KI-UTE]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

That is the problem with running sight hounds. One fellow had bred some redbone into his dogs and kept the pups but none of them showed any interest in scent tracking. He didn't get to continue the idea - new rules on hounds and depressed fur prices.

So you identify the problem, the hound is a sight hunter and needs help from a fast moving vehicle. Thank you. You also identify an individual and taking the initiative to attempt to cure the problem and move the dog runner craft forward. What one individual does represents an isolated case, not the norm.

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

The only funny business is you. The real hound guys are pretty much out of business now because of ignorant folks such as yourself with emotional knee-jerks rather than rational thought.

Name calling and such things are prohibited forum activities. They also accomplish nothing.

I have stated many times that there is nothing wrong with hunting coyotes with hounds in an ethical manner, that would include law abiding manner. Why call me ignorant when you state you are not an authority on the subject yourself?

[KI-UTE]

Originally Posted by predatorzedge

An I honestly cant see a trapper walking up to a bloody coyote thats snared at point blank range and pull the trigger, buckshot bbs whatever it maybe would blow a hole the size of a fist out the other side making for very poor hides to sell, honestly your full of it so grab your shovel an start shoveling it.

I said trapped.

So if you can't believe this fact, does that mean you are a person of limited experience?

By all means, go out some fall in an area frequented by people with large calibre rifles and/or shotguns, and trap some coyotes. See what happens when they find your live animals in your traps.

It's really a no brainer! They put bullets and shotgun pellets in, but not limited to, the head and/or other/all parts of the animal's body. Literally no brainer left in head-er, left-er!

Originally Posted by predatorzedge

Also why can a hound not see a coyote at 1/2 mile when a coyote can spot a human at 1/2 mile an start running your logic has no rhyme or reason but complete bull, back your facts before shootin it off like a spoiled kid in a candy store.

Please, by all means, back your facts first.

You can actually think through this particular subject/topic. Coyotes live in flat country, rough country, mountains, fields, pastures, meadows and the such. These such places have such things as depressions in the ground, creeks, brush, forest, rocks, coulees, and many other things that limit the vision, to such end that line of sight becomes restricted to less than 1/2 mile. If you dumped dogs at 1/2 mile and coyote runs into a sight limiting factor such as the forementioned, then the dogs will no longer see the coyote. As hounds are sight dogs, when they lose line of sight with target animal, aka coyote, then they readily lose target animal.

By cutting the distance down from 1/2 mile to below 1/4 mile with truck, the hound-hunter greatly increases his chances of success.

Ignorant? Me? I think not in regards to this subject!

I know many people that ran hounds. I do not speak in ignorance.

Ever consider the possibility that once upon a time I may have owned hounds???!!!

I can say that I never chased coyotes with a truck with my hounds.

We can continue if ya'all want to. Generally I have better things to do. We can stop too. However, if I am attacked or accused, I will respond.

[Brady]

We can continue if ya'all want to. Generally I have better things to do. We can stop too. However, if I am attacked or accused, I will respond.

And if you all want to continue, I suggest you halt with the attacks.

[KI-UTE]

I was not aware that I attacked any individual. To me, my response was fair play debate.

Please point out where I personally attacked anyone.

[Canuck44]

there is a chapter on wolf coursing in a book by teddie roosevelt that goes over his experiances hunting wolves and coyotes with hounds in the states around 1905. They followed the dogs on horseback and often the chase could be over 3 miles and sometimes as far as 10 miles. pretty interesting book with some good info but at the same time a really dry read.

Of interest to this thread is that he notes that the hounds would often lose the coyote if it had more than a 1/2 mile headstart, goes to show that more than a 1/2 mile was tough but up to that range of a headstart was doable for the dogs. Also talks quite a bit about the troubles the dogs had hunting them over the mixed terrain but that they did have success as well. Written from experiance from over 100 years ago but I think it would be pretty similar today. The book is Outdoor pastimes of an american hunter if anyone is interested...

[sourdough doug]

IMO, I've heard enuff already, as I stated in one of the first posts made regarding this subject. This does not have a damn thing to do with trapping. As trappers, we make every attempt to take our animals as humanely as possible. Growing up, I saw first hand how coyotes were taken by hounds. It didn't impress me then and I doubt if hounds have changed much in the years since then. So, what are chances of this post going somewhere else and that's all I have to say about that...

[predatorzedge]

sorry you feel that way doug but I take all my coyotes I get from fall to the end of the season to a local trapper. I was just getting info on it for some problem coyotes that a person has and trapping is outa the question. I was looking at doing an alternative route to getting them. An trappers have more knowledge of these regulations as a rule on furbearing animals an whats legal or not. Didnt mean to throw the wrong ideas out there for no-one but was interested after seeing it done. Thanks everyone for the input.

[predatorzedge]

hey thanks canuck gonna look for that be interesting to look over thanks.

[jacob1202]

vindalbakken knows what hes talkin about... and predator if u want a live demonstration one day let me know... the greyhounds and wolfhound are always eager to please.... and to defend this... ive seen an animal live for 2 days on a snare ... how ethical is that??? i never attack the man who does this as a hobby or for a living... the dogs have the yote dead in a minute and if not my club does

[jacob1202]

and yeah u cant release the dogs at half a mile...cuz the moment they jump out they are at a full sprint and are only good for 500 yards... so if the yote is 500 yds away they are tired by the time they get where they first spotted it... but they do spot them half mile away and they definatelly let u know it... but u dont go chasing the yote down with the truck.... stuff gets broken that way

[KI-UTE]

Originally Posted by Vindalbakken

And yes, they would turn the hounds loose at 1/2 mile.

And no, they did not chase the yotes with the truck - that is what they had the dogs for.

So don't extrapolate your peculiar circumstance to the whole of the population.

What's that??? Vindelbraken knows? Does this not conflict with exactly just what you have stated, as you are truly a person in the know. I thank you for your honesty Jacob1202. I am most impressed.

[KI-UTE]

Originally Posted by predatorzedge

I was just getting info on it for some problem coyotes that a person has and trapping is outa the question. I was looking at doing an alternative route to getting them.

An trappers have more knowledge of these regulations as a rule on furbearing animals an whats legal or not.

Yes and yes.

Perhaps I may lend a hand with your predicament. There are such things in this land as a damage permit. SRD will issue you a damage permit for trapping out of season when deemed necessary.

The use of running dogs, aka hounds, can be authorized for use in this dept. The use of trap or snares as well.

Please stop by your local SRD office today for your permit and away you go.

One stipulation... there must be damage incurred for such a permit to be issued. Permits are not to be issued when damage has not taken place.

[Gilly]

residing in saskatchewan has allowed us to hunt coyotes for years in certain rural municipalities. in the south i have access to a ton of good areas. the houndsmen i have ran with go the extra mile to insure its done right. in any given day we come across coyotes we may only be able to dump the dogs on half. we have invested far too much money to beat up new trucks and gear just to add one more coyote. ethical it sure is ! our hounds have the coyote dispatched 9 times out of ten by the time we get there. Yet with the proper throat dog you have far less damage than any 22-250. we do it because we are passionate about our hounds. dont forget the time and money invested into feed, vet bills,fuel, dog boxes and the hours spent training these hounds to get the job done right. Good throat dogs don't come out of every litter. There are definetly cheaper ways to harvest coyotes but seeing those long legged staghounds tumble one is pretty neat. Before you invest a bunch of money into it i would suggest going with another houndsmen to try er out if they will let ya. theres a time and a place for everything and when your are doing it dont advertise that you are. the public along with the antis already hate houndsmen lets not give them any more to fuel their fire. if you think you can buy a bunch of hounds and simply start hunting you may also be in for a surprise. Your pack is only as good as your slowest dog! they need time together to run and work as a pack. IMO the scent hounds are great if they hit the thick stuff but this is strictly a running dog game. speed kills but unless you got a jam up throat dog you got nothin. Hunt with the hounds before you buy because talk in this business can be cheap and really good hounds arent cheap. You may have a bunch of fast dogs but unless you got that one special one who will jump in and start crushin skulls you could end up with a bunch of ass grabbers. I wish you good luck in your search and once you get into it it becomes a severe obssession.