Bitcoin pushing $70k...

[ehrgeiz]

Binance backs out of FTX bailout. Holy smokes she's going down hard today.

Okkaay so maybe we won't have to wait 10 years to see if your prediction comes true.

[fishtank]

Greasy …

[eric2381]

This stuff is a scam, and people get surprised when they get scammed??? Ontario teachers pension fund was dumb enough to put $95M into FTX……

[fishtank]

Originally Posted by eric2381

This stuff is a scam, and people get surprised when they get scammed??? Ontario teachers pension fund was dumb enough to put $95M into FTX……

better then Quebec they put 150 million into Celsius

[surhuntsalot]

It shouldn’t be too hard to see that the Fiat Currency of the Western Central Bank is on its way out, and the plan to introduce a Central Bank Digital Currency is underway. Truth is the Central bank wants the currency we use now to collapse so they can usher in their replacement. It’s hard to do that when people have alternatives…. Gold, Bitcoin, and other currencies. My guess is there are a lot of people who don’t agree with the “New System “, and don’t like the idea of a Social Credit System like in China… Complete economic control… Donate to a cause Govt doesn’t agree with, you’re locked out… Sell your neighbour an old lawnmower, no more cash under the table, the govt wants its cut… The Central Bank won’t be able to accomplish this if people can opt out to alternatives… so my guess is we’re gonna see a lot more effort to take down crypto and alternative currency yet to come…

[ehrgeiz]

To be fair, I think all financial instruments have a scam element to them. I mean the fractional reserve system itself puts your money and it’s value at great risk. All we have to do is look at the absolute failures of fiscal policy across the developed world. You literally had the BoC governor on the news telling Canadians to carry debt with confidence during the Vid, that they were going to keep rates low for a long time. Literally months later you have highest interest rates moves in a generation+. Can’t tell if totally incompetent or intentionally evil.

Anyway, the well with crypto is deep, and certainly not all are good actors, but I think it’s core innovation could be as impactful as the invention of the printing press. Previously, all monetary policy required trusted intermediary’s to act as administrators of the system, however time and time again we see this trust abused.

The true innovations are a decentralized, transparent, censorship resistant, trust-less and permission-less monetary network. If you let those principles guide your investments in crypto you’ll likely avoid the outright scams easily.

CBDC’s are coming, that’s no secret IMHO and the attraction is a previously unimaginable level of control by Government and Corporations. They’re the antithesis of cryptos intent. It’s almost poetic in its duality. I’m certain BTC and ETH+ will succeed, because if they don’t I’m afraid of what will come instead.

[Mb-MBR]

I have nothing to add to this thread but I have read every post and each update. I'm amazed at the knowledge folks have of the financial/crypto markets and how they work or don't work.

Personally, I have a hard time handing over my cash without getting anything concrete in return, meaning if I hand over $1,000.00 for a gun, I expect a gun. Thats probably why I'll die relatively poor in cash assets, but I'll be equity rich...... I hope, but as I tell my kids, I won't really care where I'm going. LOL

[eric2381]

I’m a value investor. In order for something to have value, it must have function. The way I see it, the function of crypto is to be a scam. Therefore, the only people it has value to are the originators of the scam.

[KegRiver]

https://freebeacon.com/biden-adminis...ix-months-ago/

This is why I did not and will not buy into any crypto scam.

Like any pozin scheme, the only way for one person to make money is for someone else to loose money.

The reason people fall for these scams is the loses don't become apparent until the scheme goes bust or gets busted.

Wealth can not be generated from thin air. It absolutely has to come from somewhere.
That could be goods, or services, or fools who believe that wealth can be generated from thin air.


There is no denying that some people have made money from crypto, but for every dollar gained, hundreds if not thousands will be lost by others.

I have no interest in becoming a victim or a victimizer.

[Map Maker]

Hindsight is always 20/20.

But when buying stocks, you still are just getting a number, nothing tangible.
I never put a penny into bitcoin, biggest reason was cuz I couldn’t figure out how.

I think bitcoin will be around as an alternative to money on an international level in the future sometime.
But this just shows why it has to be regulated.

Just think when coins first came out. They equaled a bushel of barley. Then they had to back the coins with the metal and the kings head on them.

But your right. A lot of people lost but I’m sure it was just play money to 99%.

[Drewski Canuck]

For alot of people, Cryptos were not play money.

They lost their life savings, their pensions, etc.

WHY???

It is so easy to track. The Gold boom of the early 1990's was about saying you have a mine, but not daring to dig into the ground, because you might only have rock.

Then came the magic of the Tech boom. Companies where going up in value 100s of % a month, and the money poured in, for programs being developed and products promised that never materialized.

Now Crypto was the Darling.

Why? Well stupid, its the same old story since Tullip Mania in the 1600's in Holland.

Its the same old story since 1929.

The Fictional Gordon Gecko understood it in the movie Wall Street.

GREED.

But none of the people who invested the money and lost the money throughout history were stupid. They just wanted to believe that they did not have to work for a living.

But don't worry, the next big thing is just around the corner.

As for the financial markets, we all know that the world population keeps increasing, and the Green Energy promises are as hollow as tulip mania, 1929, the Gold Boom, the Tech Boom, and the Crypto Boom.

At some point, the Spin Doctors will be telling you to invest in oil stocks. Right now it is a very good place to be.

Just remember that when the promotors tell you to get in, this really is the first sign to get out of the market.

Drewski

[eric2381]

Excellent Drewski. Thanks for your great, intelligent contribution

[eric2381]

We should never ever ever EVER think of our investing money as “play money”. The whole idea is to grow and compound your money over time. “It’s only $1000”. Compounded over 50 years at 10%, that’s $117,391. “Play money”

[Map Maker]

Originally Posted by eric2381

We should never ever ever EVER think of our investing money as “play money”. The whole idea is to grow and compound your money over time. “It’s only $1000”. Compounded over 50 years at 10%, that’s $117,391. “Play money”

You do you. I’ve always had play money. Takes the edge off. Like most folks.
Considering you mention 50 years, I assume your very young.

My play money calculated buy and result at 30 yrs old put a healthy down payment on my house and my financial discipline had me pay off my house in 9 years.

I never say Never or ever, ever, or ever.

But I do agree with drewski on his post. But I don’t think many people bet the farm on bitcoin unless it was already profit.

My opinion of course.

[Who Da Fisherman]

Originally Posted by eric2381

We should never ever ever EVER think of our investing money as “play money”. The whole idea is to grow and compound your money over time. “It’s only $1000”. Compounded over 50 years at 10%, that’s $117,391. “Play money”

10%!!!! Sign me up. No seriously sign me up in this market, I am trying to stay even after getting smoked down over the last year.
But I guess your 10% was made in jest just like the play money quote.
WDF

[eric2381]

I’m not “very young”. 50 years is from the age of 20 til age 70. I’m trying to put out some info for people here to learn how to make solid investments. But some are not interested in that. Look after your health and manage your stress when the gambling and speculating begin to take its toll on you.

I’ll continue to teach my teenage kids and I have no worries over whether they’ll be successful or not. I tell them that whatever career path they choose, they must first and foremost make good investments and manage their money smartly.

Good luck. Back to the hunting and shooting section for me.

[ehrgeiz]

I just don't see crypto as any different than other financial assets from a risk perspective. I find it odd that so many do and I think it comes from a lack of understanding or desire to understand. Nothing is up only otherwise it would be easy money.

If you bought a pile of Western Canadian O&G stocks in 2013 because they delivered a great dividend yield, you probably weren't so hot about that move in 2015, and particularly in spring 2020. If you bought some in spring 2020, you probably are very happy with your decision to so do today. Maybe next year that all changes again. However you see yourself, disciplined value investor or speculative degenerate both can get caught on the wrong side of a financial ****ticane.

Time in the market, not timing the market, particularly if you have a long horizon. Balance your appetite for risk with your ability to control your emotions and it's all smooth sailing.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by ehrgeiz

I just don't see crypto as any different than other financial assets from a risk perspective. I find it odd that so many do and I think it comes from a lack of understanding or desire to understand. Nothing is up only otherwise it would be easy money.

If you bought a pile of Western Canadian O&G stocks in 2013 because they delivered a great dividend yield, you probably weren't so hot about that move in 2015, and particularly in spring 2020. If you bought some in spring 2020, you probably are very happy with your decision to so do today. Maybe next year that all changes again. However you see yourself, disciplined value investor or speculative degenerate both can get caught on the wrong side of a financial ****ticane.

Time in the market, not timing the market, particularly if you have a long horizon. Balance your appetite for risk with your ability to control your emotions and it's all smooth sailing.

Problem lies In the fact that if you own an oil and gas stock. They have assets and production that is tied to a commodities market. Stock price rises and falls based upon the commodity, company performance, financials etc.

Bitcoin is not backed up by anything. There is just a collective feeling that it has value because someone else also says it has value. It’s an invisible made up thing that can evaporate instantly because it has nothing bank rolling it, no assets, nothing…zip.

People buying it are purely speculating. It’s almost like a weird trendy art piece… people could change their mind and say it’s worthless… however the buyer would always have the painting.

If Bitcoin went to zero… who do you sue, complain to…argue with… demand restitution from?

Bitcoin is only worth what another guy says it’s worth. It’s pure gambling and speculation. For this reason people have fled it and help it to plummet.

Now the gamble is people need to pump it up if they have lots invested. They need others to speculate. People need to have money that they could lose.

[fishnguy]

^ Same same. It’s all speculating, long term or short. It’s all about who thinks what it is worth and some are right and some are wrong. Shareholders aren’t entitled to the assets when **** hits the fan.















I never invested in crypto.

[ehrgeiz]

^
In the case of Bitcoin, I would argue that it's production is mining and fees, it's yield is additional bitcoin and it's service is providing users with a trustless, decentralized monetary network to exchange value anywhere, anytime, without need for anyone's permission. Crypto broadly has a lot of other value initiatives that may or may not deliver, such as self-executing smart contracts, digital property rights, play to earn, on and on, but BTC is the easiest to focus on and represents the core innovation.

If you bought stock in Twitter (when it was public), or Meta, well they sell your data and have add revenue, but their revenue nowhere near matched their valuations. Their application code isn't all that special either and could/has been replicated. People bought the asset speculating on the more intangible value of their network. Not that much different than Bitcoin, but you are right there is a CEO and a board to hold "accountable". Wait, reminder me again, how many CEO's of the large banks went to prison for causing the 2008 financial calamity which precipitated untold human misery and suffering? None, no consequences at all, I would rather trust the immutable decentralized protocol. With all that said, I do agree these cryptos assets are unique and do not perfectly fit these financial analogs.

Some see scam, whereas I see an innovation that could be as impactful as the separation of Church and State.

Edit, fishy beat me to the comparison while I was composing, but yep.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by ehrgeiz

^
In the case of Bitcoin, I would argue that it's production is mining and fees, it's yield is additional bitcoin and it's service is providing users with a trustless, decentralized monetary network to exchange value anywhere, anytime, without need for anyone's permission. Crypto broadly has a lot of other value initiatives that may or may not deliver, such as self-executing smart contracts, digital property rights, play to earn, on and on, but BTC is the easiest to focus on and represents the core innovation.

If you bought stock in Twitter (when it was public), or Meta, well they sell your data and have add revenue, but their revenue nowhere near matched their valuations. Their application code isn't all that special either and could/has been replicated. People bought the asset speculating on the more intangible value of their network. Not that much different than Bitcoin, but you are right there is a CEO and a board to hold "accountable". Wait, reminder me again, how many CEO's of the large banks went to prison for causing the 2008 financial calamity which precipitated untold human misery and suffering? None, no consequences at all, I would rather trust the immutable decentralized protocol. With all that said, I do agree these cryptos assets are unique and do not perfectly fit these financial analogs.

Some see scam, whereas I see an innovation that could be as impactful as the separation of Church and State.

Edit, fishy beat me to the comparison while I was composing, but yep.

Crypto can be spun any way you wish.

However if I hold I hold up my bitcoin for sale my hand is empty. You buy based upon hope someone else also agrees this invisible holding is worth something.

At least if I hold up a baseball card… if someone doesn’t say it’s worth anything… I still hold a baseball card.

Crypto is so much a case of who’s left holding an invisible baseball after others have pulled their money out.

You want separation of church and state? How does currency backed by actual assets be worse than Bitcoin?

Crypto and normal currencies are all tracked. All controlled.

Who made crypto? Who owns the inside knowledge?

Crypto has been manipulated as well one must realize. It’s far from infallible. But there is lots of smoke and mirrors around it’s value on any given day.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by fishnguy

^ Same same. It’s all speculating, long term or short. It’s all about who thinks what it is worth and some are right and some are wrong. Shareholders aren’t entitled to the assets when **** hits the fan.


I never invested in crypto.

No doubt one can lose all their money in the market. Benefit is unless there is fraud, companies info is public including financials.

[ehrgeiz]

Originally Posted by Sundancefisher

Crypto can be spun any way you wish.

However if I hold I hold up my bitcoin for sale my hand is empty. You buy based upon hope someone else also agrees this invisible holding is worth something.

At least if I hold up a baseball card… if someone doesn’t say it’s worth anything… I still hold a baseball card.

Crypto is so much a case of who’s left holding an invisible baseball after others have pulled their money out.

You want separation of church and state? How does currency backed by actual assets be worse than Bitcoin?

Crypto and normal currencies are all tracked. All controlled.

Who made crypto? Who owns the inside knowledge?

Crypto has been manipulated as well one must realize. It’s far from infallible. But there is lots of smoke and mirrors around it’s value on any given day.

At the end of the day, in the absence of the next fool who wants it, that baseball card is a piece low grade cardboard with some worthless ink on it. Intrinsically worthless for anything but fire starter.

How many actually acquire a certificate of their stock ownership? For most it's just a number in a digital ledger assigned to their digital bank account tied to the trust that their bank is solvent. Nothing tangible, really.

The dollar itself is a shared delusion whereby it's value is interpreted by a culture of people, just like a language. When you pop the hood, it's all just belief, smoke and mirrors.

I'm interested in a system where the State, it's politicians and bureaucrats have to actually act as a responsible corporation as intended and can't easily imperil the stored labor of it's citizenry by recklessly printing money at will.

You are right that generally crypto is easily tracked. Most blockchains are public sans privacy focused chains such as Monero or ETH applications like Tornado-Cash which was subject to recent and controversial sanctions by OFAC. I digress though.

Crypto is a broad term filled with as many or more centralized and controlled protocols as not. Like I say let's just focus on Bitcoin as it's easier. It's initial protocol was realized by the pseudonymous Satoshi Nakamoto and improved upon by a collection of decentralized contributors through a voluntary process known as consensus. Most recently the network required consensus to accept the taproot upgrade. Some might remember the Bitcoin Cash fork saga. It can only be controlled through direct participation, and consensus not administrative cheat codes.

If you or anyone reading is genuinely interested, I would recommend spending a coffee or 2 on reading pet3rpan’s excellent summary of the history of cryptography here:

https://pet3rpan.medium.com/history-...e-e199f02ca380

It may give you a greater appreciation for the innovation and all of the Cypherpunk shoulders and technological development Satoshi had to stand on to make the leap.

[Sundancefisher]

Originally Posted by ehrgeiz

At the end of the day, in the absence of the next fool who wants it, that baseball card is a piece low grade cardboard with some worthless ink on it. Intrinsically worthless for anything but fire starter.

How many actually acquire a certificate of their stock ownership? For most it's just a number in a digital ledger assigned to their digital bank account tied to the trust that their bank is solvent. Nothing tangible, really.

The dollar itself is a shared delusion whereby it's value is interpreted by a culture of people, just like a language. When you pop the hood, it's all just belief, smoke and mirrors.

I'm interested in a system where the State, it's politicians and bureaucrats have to actually act as a responsible corporation as intended and can't easily imperil the stored labor of it's citizenry by recklessly printing money at will.

You are right that generally crypto is easily tracked. Most blockchains are public sans privacy focused chains such as Monero or ETH applications like Tornado-Cash which was subject to recent and controversial sanctions by OFAC. I digress though.

Crypto is a broad term filled with as many or more centralized and controlled protocols as not. Like I say let's just focus on Bitcoin as it's easier. It's initial protocol was realized by the pseudonymous Satoshi Nakamoto and improved upon by a collection of decentralized contributors through a voluntary process known as consensus. Most recently the network required consensus to accept the taproot upgrade. Some might remember the Bitcoin Cash fork saga. It can only be controlled through direct participation, and consensus not administrative cheat codes.

If you or anyone reading is genuinely interested, I would recommend spending a coffee or 2 on reading pet3rpan’s excellent summary of the history of cryptography here:

https://pet3rpan.medium.com/history-...e-e199f02ca380

It may give you a greater appreciation for the innovation and all of the Cypherpunk shoulders and technological development Satoshi had to stand on to make the leap.

False.

The card is a physical asset. It will always be so unless you burn it.

A Bitcoin can be worthless just cause. And you only are left with nothingness.

Lots of people push crypto. Why? Because it’s a legal Ponzi scheme.

It’s something worthless until someone tells you it’s worth something. They then say it will be worth more so buy some. That person then buys some and tells the next person they bought some so it’s valuable and they too should buy some.

Eventually someone says… hey… why is it worth something. Maybe I’ll sell. Then the price drops. The next person sells and so on. Meanwhile in the background someone is saying it’s falling and a great time to buy. That helps people get out.

Eventually some people have some but what’s it worth? Either the process restarts or the fad ends.

[Glion]

I dunno I enjoyed crypto... bought a bunch and then got an odd feeling about it all. So I sold everything except a tiny amount and used all the gains to buy a Fierce 7mm Rem mag with a nightforce scope. So crypto was kind to me... dunno if I would do it again though lol.

[ehrgeiz]

Fact! Haha.

I don’t think we’ll agree on the matter, but I really don’t think you know enough about bitcoin or crypto to form such a strong blanket opinion.

I guess like always we’ll wait and see.

[morinj]

Biggest Ponzi scheme in history is the first world banking institution, specially the U.S! Many push the agenda that crypto currencies are all Ponzi schemes, when in fact there are many that have serious utility, the amount of money lost in digital currency pales in comparison to what the banking institutions have swindled out of everyday people. Crypto currencies aren’t going anywhere, it’s a new asset class, so do some serious research, hop on the bus or get left behind, and don’t forget most transactions made world wide are done so digitally, with dollars that do not exist, with nothing backing them!

[dr.crentist]

If I fire up my old Commodore, will I be able to mine Bitcoins with it?

[Sundancefisher]

Right now.

Bitcoin is $22,525 cdn

Back on Nov 12, 2021 it was $80,827 cdn

[fishnguy]

Right now, Shopify stock is 40.02 USD. On November 19, 2021 it was 169.06 USD