Bad gun or bad ammo?

[firegod74]

Yesterday I bought a new Savage 111 in 270. We bought 2 boxes of Federal ammo and headed home.

We shot a few shots and everything seems ok, too windy to actually see the accuracy level of the unit.

When we got back to the house we were looking at the empty casings....
And a primer from a spent shell fell out of the primer pocket and landed on the floor.
We looked at the others and another casing had a powder ring around the primer, like it almost came out too.
I've never had this happen before in my life, and this was Fedral ammo, not handloads or anything.

So do you think we got a bad batch of ammo? Or a gun issue? It makes me nervous about the safety of the setup, and I don't know how to tell where the issue is.

Thanks guys.

[westwest]

Originally Posted by firegod74

Yesterday I bought a new Savage 111 in 270. We bought 2 boxes of Federal ammo and headed home.

We shot a few shots and everything seems ok, too windy to actually see the accuracy level of the unit.

When we got back to the house we were looking at the empty casings....
And a primer from a spent shell fell out of the primer pocket and landed on the floor.
We looked at the others and another casing had a powder ring around the primer, like it almost came out too.
I've never had this happen before in my life, and this was Fedral ammo, not handloads or anything.

So do you think we got a bad batch of ammo? Or a gun issue? It makes me nervous about the safety of the setup, and I don't know how to tell where the issue is.

Thanks guys.

Sounds like it could be a head spacing problem possibly or possibly a pressure problem. I don't know much about it but I'm sure others will chime in .

cheers

[firegod74]

I was thinking head spacing too. I checked to make sure the numbers match between the bolt and the action.

[westwest]

Originally Posted by firegod74

I was thinking head spacing too. I checked to make sure the numbers match between the bolt and the action.

For the primers popping out that far there must be space for them to do that, I think.
cheers

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by firegod74

Yesterday I bought a new Savage 111 in 270. We bought 2 boxes of Federal ammo and headed home.

We shot a few shots and everything seems ok, too windy to actually see the accuracy level of the unit.

When we got back to the house we were looking at the empty casings....
And a primer from a spent shell fell out of the primer pocket and landed on the floor.
We looked at the others and another casing had a powder ring around the primer, like it almost came out too.
I've never had this happen before in my life, and this was Fedral ammo, not handloads or anything.

So do you think we got a bad batch of ammo? Or a gun issue? It makes me nervous about the safety of the setup, and I don't know how to tell where the issue is.

Thanks guys.

I would get the rifle head spaced first, for a couple of reasons.
The first, is that only ONE primer fell out, and primers falling out is normally an ammo thing, NOT a head space problem.
Second, if there are powder leakage marks on the other cases, that would also indicate high pressure or a bad case, in this instance the whole box of cases MAY have bad primer pockets.
The only way to find out exactly what the problem is , is a process of elimination, and getting the rifle head spaced is an easy way to rule it our.
Second, get the cases checked out by some one who knows how to check them for secs., and a dial indicator system like the Sinclair, RCBS, etc, is the only way, along with a vernier, to accurately find out of the cases are in fact within spec.
You may find that a different box of ammo will give a completely different result, but that is not to say that the rifle does not have an oversized bolt head or the head space is not correct ( two different conditions, BTW).
Cat

[firegod74]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I would get the rifle head spaced first, for a couple of reasons.
The first, is that only ONE primer fell out, and primers falling out is normally an ammo thing, NOT a head space problem.
Second, if there are powder leakage marks on the other cases, that would also indicate high pressure or a bad case, in this instance the whole box of cases MAY have bad primer pockets.
The only way to find out exactly what the problem is , is a process of elimination, and getting the rifle head spaced is an easy way to rule it our.
Second, get the cases checked out by some one who knows how to check them for secs., and a dial indicator system like the Sinclair, RCBS, etc, is the only way, along with a vernier, to accurately find out of the cases are in fact within spec.
You may find that a different box of ammo will give a completely different result, but that is not to say that the rifle does not have an oversized bolt head or the head space is not correct ( two different conditions, BTW).
Cat

I was thinking of buying a box of ammo from winchester the same grain (150) and see if it happens with them so I can rule out bad ammo. Something I didn't mention in the original post is that we had two different grains out there. 130, and 150. The issues seemed to be only with the 150 grain.

Cat the gun is brand new. I don't really want to spend money getting a smith to check head spacing. That cost should land on Savage. The gun is brand new off the shelf, if it looks like a gun issue, I woud like it replaced and let someone else figure out what is wrong with the gun. If its the gun and not just a bad batch of ammo.

[elkhunter11]

Something I didn't mention in the original post is that we had two different grains out there. 130, and 150. The issues seemed to be only with the 150 grain.

That would in itself indicate an ammunition problem.I would try one more type of ammunition to be sure.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

That would in itself indicate an ammunition problem.I would try one more type of ammunition to be sure.

I'd say its an amo problem, once had a box of remington 150's where a few wouldnt eject and a box of Hornady's where none of them would eject properly. It got me pretty worked up but other than those two boxes I've never had a problem.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by firegod74

I was thinking of buying a box of ammo from winchester the same grain (150) and see if it happens with them so I can rule out bad ammo. Something I didn't mention in the original post is that we had two different grains out there. 130, and 150. The issues seemed to be only with the 150 grain.

Cat the gun is brand new. I don't really want to spend money getting a smith to check head spacing. That cost should land on Savage. The gun is brand new off the shelf, if it looks like a gun issue, I woud like it replaced and let someone else figure out what is wrong with the gun. If its the gun and not just a bad batch of ammo.

You do not need a gunsmith to take get it head spaced, many shooters own and know how to use head space gauges, I'm sure you can find someone close who can help you out.
However, I posted the head space check as one step in determining whether or not it is actually the rifle, as some have indicated, and it should be done to do a proper analysis.
Myself, I would look at the ammo as well as the rifle, however.

Getting warranty done on a new rifle is a PIA, I have been involved in a few warranty and no-warranty issues, one with a Savage, and two with Remington, and one with a Ruger.
The non-warranty issue with the Savage was solved a lot faster and with satisfaction than either of the Remington warranty issues were, and the Ruger issue never was resolved!

I rarely attempt to get warranty work done at all if I can do the repair myself, simply because I can do without the hassle.
Cat

[bobinthesky]

Usually, loose primers are a result of excessively high pressure loads or, out of spec primer pockets or primers. Most modern (and a lot of not so modern) rifles have pretty good protection for the shooter in the event that this happens. The blowby high pressure gas is usually vented into the box magazine and not back into the shooters face.

In your case, I wouldn't suspect a head space problem but it's easy to get a better idea of whether this is worth persuing simply by checking the fired cases for incipient head seperation. If the rifle has excessive headspace, the cases will be stretched lengthways and the brass will have a thin spot inside.
Take a few inches of thin but very stiff wire such as uncoated welding rod, fashion a small 90 dgree bend in the end with a rounded point on it. This 90 degree bend has to be very small as your going to insert it into the case and feel for a ring in the brass down near the case head. The ring, if there is one, should run around the diameter of the case about 1/2 an inch up from the base. If there's no ring, then you probably dont have a headspace problem. If there is a ring, get the headspace checked and you'll likely want to send it back to the manufacturer for rectification. Make sure you check a bunch of the fired cases and not just one or two.

If the brass tests fine with the wire, then I'm guessing that you got a bunch of bad brass and I wouldn't try to reload them. I've run into the same problem with Federal brass in the past.

[Whiskey Wish]

First of all let me say it has been MANY years since I have purchased a new rifle. However, back in the Jurassic Age when we bought new rifles they had to be cleaned before firing as they had "shipping grease" (?) in and on them. Is that still being done today and could that be a source of your problem? Have you run a patch through the barrel?
Not trying to be a smart a** or nothing FG....just saying. I know I have missed some obvious things in my day that have cause me a couple of Homer Simpson moments.

Keep Your Powder Dry,
Dave.

[firegod74]

Thanks for the replies guys. I did give it a cleaning before we took it out. I will try to get the head spacing checked, theres a few reloaders around, and I know a retired gunsmith I can ask.
I'm really hoping it was the ammo. First brand new gun, I want it to preform well. And the ammo was the cheap federal brand. Maybe I got what I paid for.

[Big Red 250]

I'd be returning it to where you bought it and getting a new one in return. Let the store get it checked out and repaired.

[firegod74]

Originally Posted by Big Red 250

I'd be returning it to where you bought it and getting a new one in return. Let the store get it checked out and repaired.

That was my first thought exactly! Being the long weekend, I had to wait till today to take it in. We'll see what they say.

[whitetail Junkie]

Originally Posted by firegod74

Maybe I got what I paid for.

You kind of answered your own question there.i'm sorry but i'll hunt with or shoot any rifle out there except for a savage.Even though they can be very accurate rifles I dont Trust them.My guess is that it's the rifle and the ammunition.

either way problems with a rifle are a pain & I wish you the best of luck solveing your rifle problem. Best wishes,WJ

[Big Red 250]

I don't own any savages but lots of other guy's do and they seem to like them just fine.

[bobinthesky]

Originally Posted by whitetail Junkie

You kind of answered your own question there.i'm sorry but i'll hunt with or shoot any rifle out there except for a savage.Even though they can be very accurate rifles I dont Trust them.My guess is that it's the rifle and the ammunition.

either way problems with a rifle are a pain & I wish you the best of luck solveing your rifle problem. Best wishes,WJ

Although I've never owned any of the newer Savage rifles, I don't believe that this is the case with them. It seems to me that they've earned a better reputation than that.

[Cal]

Originally Posted by bobinthesky

Although I've never owned any of the newer Savage rifles, I don't believe that this is the case with them. It seems to me that they've earned a better reputation than that.

x3 I've never owned one but have hunted with many who did, the only problem I have with them is that their often more acurate than my ruger. Not that its a big deal with me, mine is plenty acurate enough, but I suspect a large amount of Savage hate comes from guys that cant stand having their rifles outshot by a gun that costs 1/3 as much.

[Duramaximos]

I have nothing but love for my new Savage 243.
It out shoots all the rifles in the gun cabinet, all of them costing more $$$. That said, this is the first rifle I've hand loaded ammo for.

[North]

I had the same thing happen with a Savage FCSS 16 chambered in a .270 WSM.

I had already shot about 50 shots throughout it (over the course of a month or so) with out a problem when I had two primers pop out on a particularly hot day.

The general consensus I got from everyone I talked too was that it was a bad batch of bullets. The headspacing can be ruled out by firing some rounds from another box. If it is a head space issue, this should be happening with all your bullets according to what I have learned. Since you mentioned it was only with the 150 grain and as mentioned by another poster, that likely rules out head spacing and your rifle as the issue.

Since I only had a problem with that one box, I ruled it the ammo. I emailed Federal with pictures and have yet to get a reply. I have talked to people who say they will reimburse me but I have yet to see the cheque in the mail.

Anyways, good luck figuring out your issue. Its not a great feeling but in my similar scenario it was the ammo and not the rifle.

[firegod74]

North how many shots have you shot since the primer issue? I'm glad to hear it never came back.
We shot some more the next day with no issues. I'm leaning towards the ammo too.

[eric2381]

I would try Winchester or Remington ammo. I'm not a fan of Federal brass. Soft in the head and thicker walls as well.

I've opened boxes of Federal blue box and found shells that were missing primers. The store owner in Sundre was surprised as well.


Whiskey Wish brings up a good point as well with the oil in the chamber. It can cause high pressure due to the chamber walls not gripping the case on ignition.