204 Ruger or 223 Rem - Help me decide

[Duramaximos]

Hi folks, I'm debating between these two calibres and would like to hear your opinions.

I have not shot either round.

I know 223 ammunition is plentiful an relatively cheap. That said, I would shoot less than 100 rounds per year, and likely less than 50 rounds on some years.

I also read that it is common to be able to see your impacts with the 204. Is this also possible with the 223?

I read the 204 is capable of 4000+ fps. How quick is the 223 and would I notice the difference in the real world? I would use this rifle as a gopher vaporizer out to 150 yrds and coyotes out to 250. I'm not very confident shooting past 250 so I usually pass on those shots and try to put myself into my comfort zone or wait for a better opportunity.

Thanks in advance.

[Faststeel]

D max

I have a couple of each of these calibers. For seeing hits through the scope you need a heavy barrel in 223. Most 204's come in HB models. Not cheap to shoot if you do not reload.
Real world velocity no big deal in my opinion, 3500 fps is just as dead as 4000 fps.
You could look at 221 Fireball but again not cheap to feed. FS

[Duramaximos]

So which one of these is your go to rifle for coyotes?

I don't reload currently. What would it cost me to get setup for reloading the 204? I really like the idea of seeing my hits through the scope so I'm leaning to the 204 and reloading.

[Marlin xl7]

Do you want a heavy barrel rifle? I have a 223 in an H&R, I can see my hits through the scope. For coyotes it works wonders, and it absolutely vaporizes gophers. The whole set-up cost me around $400, and the rifle is very accurate. Wouldn't trade it for anything.

[Duramaximos]

Originally Posted by Marlin xl7

Do you want a heavy barrel rifle? I have a 223 in an H&R, I can see my hits through the scope. For coyotes it works wonders, and it absolutely vaporizes gophers. The whole set-up cost me around $400, and the rifle is very accurate. Wouldn't trade it for anything.

I've never owned a heavy barrel rifle. Are they a real pain to lug around? I'm willing to forego some comfort for accuracy and seeing my hits in the scope.

[Marlin xl7]

Originally Posted by Duramaximos

I've never owned a heavy barrel rifle. Are they a real pain to lug around? I'm willing to forego some comfort for accuracy and seeing my hits in the scope.

I don't find the weight of my H&R to be much if any more than my regular hunting rifle. I believe it comes in at around 8 to 9 lbs. I find it keeps me in shape and ready for hunting season.

[Faststeel]

Originally Posted by Duramaximos

So which one of these is your go to rifle for coyotes?

I don't reload currently. What would it cost me to get setup for reloading the 204? I really like the idea of seeing my hits through the scope so I'm leaning to the 204 and reloading.

I do not hunt coyotes, but either will do the job.
Reloading set up cost will be on the cheap side $250.00 with Lee products and Redding and RCBS will take you closer to $500.00.FS

[sureshot73]

Originally Posted by Duramaximos

I've never owned a heavy barrel rifle. Are they a real pain to lug around? I'm willing to forego some comfort for accuracy and seeing my hits in the scope.

I dont find a couple of xtra pounds to be a big deal, i too shoot an H&R heavy barrel 223, and you can definately watch the hits through your scope, and $350 for a gun that shoots 1/2" to 5/8" groups is hard to beat if you like single shots!!

[4thredneck]

I have a CZ 527 in .223 and I just love it. I can watch the red mist and the parts flying when I hit gophers. Got it near the end of winter so I only got to shoot a couple coyotes, both at 190 yards. I love the calibre.

[helluvahunter]

Go with the 204 you will love it. 24 to 26 inch barrel. Tikka makes a nice heavy barrel.

[redranger15]

.204 Next question?

[timsesink]

Tough call! Mainly gophers with the occasional yote calling, go with the .204. Mainly coyotes with occasional gophers, head out with the .223. For ethical and reliable killing power over 200yards I'd stick with the .223 for coyotes. Just my two cents.

[Dean2]

With the low round count you are talking about I am presuming you intend to use this mostly for coyotes. I would skip both. For a pure coyote gun I would go to a 22-250, 1:9 twist. You will definetly be able to see your hits on a coyote with one of these. Best of all, you can reach out and touch Wylee, a long ways out.

If you use it to shoot gophers you will go through that many in the first hour. For a gopher gun, and a non-loader the 223 is the top choice. Ammo is cheap, you can see your hits even with a light barrel gun, and it will do fine on coyotes out past 400 yards.

For a combination gun, 7MM/08. You could use for yotes in winter and big game in the fall.

[Duramaximos]

This is such a difficult decision. Great arguments for both calibres.
I was leaning to the 204 mostly for the sex appeal and fun factor that the calibre seems to have. However, I'm starting to see the practical side of the 223. Assuming I'll be able to see my impacts through the scope from a heavy barrel 223, I do feel it is the smarter choice.

Originally Posted by Dean2

With the low round count you are talking about I am presuming you intend to use this mostly for coyotes. I would skip both. For a pure coyote gun I would go to a 22-250, 1:9 twist. You will definetly be able to see your hits on a coyote with one of these. Best of all, you can reach out and touch Wylee, a long ways out.

If you use it to shoot gophers you will go through that many in the first hour. For a gopher gun, and a non-loader the 223 is the top choice. Ammo is cheap, you can see your hits even with a light barrel gun, and it will do fine on coyotes out past 400 yards.

For a combination gun, 7MM/08. You could use for yotes in winter and big game in the fall.

Actually, the gun will be used about 50/50 for coyotes and smaller varmints. The reason my shot count estimation is low is because I will likely bring a 22LR, and/or 22WMR to the gopher patch along with the new centre fire.
I know the 22-250 is a HOT calibre, but I've read that it is difficult to see your impacts on small game, so I crossed it off my short list. Interesting you mention the 7-08. I own a 7x57 and I considered it for coyote duty but several folks talked me out of it because they said it would punch a soccer ball sized hole out the back side . I really like it on deer. It's served me well.

Where should I start learning about reloading? I've watched several videos on Youtube, but their credibility is questionable. Do people often sell used reloading tools and supplies? Are they safe to buy used?
Between my dad and I, we will soon have 5 rifles that we can reload on a regular basis. Not to mention one of his is a 7mm WBY Mag, and dang that thing is pricey to shoot! I think it's time to take the plunge.

[6.5 shooter]

Where should I start learning about reloading? I've watched several videos on Youtube, but their credibility is questionable. Do people often sell used reloading tools and supplies? Are they safe to buy used?
Between my dad and I, we will soon have 5 rifles that we can reload on a regular basis. Not to mention one of his is a 7mm WBY Mag, and dang that thing is pricey to shoot! I think it's time to take the plunge.
[/LEFT][/QUOTE]

Buy new! why take the chance on used, the price of a hand/eye or a rifle is just not worth the few bucks you might save.
Buy your self a good reloading manual to start .... speer,hornady etc. and do some research. There are some very wise people on this forum, but always research it for yourself.
If I were to start getting reloading stuff again, I would start with one of the new reloading kits like R.C.B.S has. I have a number of there products in my reloading room and they have always been of top quality, I am sure some of the other companys are just as good as well.

6.5

[Duramaximos]

Ok - so I take it they are prone to having problems that could lead to catastrophic failures. Thanks for the tip . I had to ask, since it seems so practical to buy used rifles, I figured reloading equipment could be the same.

I think I'll pop into WSS this weekend and start my shopping there.

Thanks!

[gube]

For varminting, I've used the 223, 22-250, 243, and the 204.
I now only use the 243 and the 204 with my favorite now being the 204. I have two 204 savage heavy barrels and a 204 & a 243 in T3 lite.
The higher BC bullets (flat trajectory) and the low recoil of the 204 made it my "fun factor" cartridge. Lots of info on them over at the 204ruger web site.
http://www.204ruger.com

[Dean2]

Dur

I you are in Edmonton P&D offers a good reloading course for pretty cheap. If not, if you can find someone who relaods to show you it is the easier way to learn, but you do want to read a couple of good manuals cover to cover too.

AS far as used reloading equipment, presses, dies, trimmers, tumblers etc are all pretty much indestructable. Some of my stuff is well over 50 years old and has seen a heck of a lot of use and is still as good as the day I bought it.

If they look well cared for and the parts go up and down or round and round, and line up you should be fine and you can save a lot of money. If you can find someone who reloads now to take with you to have a look at the gear, that would be even better.

The only thing a guy might want to buy new would be the scale, but even that, if you take a 50 or 100 grain check weight with you, a couple of 50 grain Hornady bullets, if you have nothing else, and weigh them on the scale. If it reads within .1 or .2 of 50 grains you are good to go.(a bullet could be out by up to .2 either way but most Hornady bullets are within .1, a check weight should be spot on)

If you are going to reload, then the 204 is every bit as good a choice as the 223, because you have now taken ammo cost out of the equation. Reloads cost virtually the same for 204, 22-250, 223 etc. The small diference in powder used is virtually irrelaavent and will cost about 13 cents per round, the bullet at 19-24 cents per, depending on bullet make, and primers at 3.5 cents are the same. $8 for 20 rounds will rpobably have you shooting you centrefire a lot more.

If you are in the Calgary area PM me.

[catnthehat]

For me it is the .223 hands down.
I've seen to much trouble trying to keep the .204's going straight at the ranges I like to shoot my .223.
Cat

[Okotokian]

Originally Posted by Duramaximos

That said, I would shoot less than 100 rounds per year, and likely less than 50 rounds on some years...

II'm not very confident shooting past 250 so I usually pass on those shots and try to put myself into my comfort zone or wait for a better opportunity.

.

Suggestion.... shoot more often and grow that confidence! (shooting often and lengthening range might sway you more to the .223?)

But wth do I know? I shoot a .22mag for the little stuff LOL

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Duramaximos

Hi folks, I'm debating between these two calibres and would like to hear your opinions.

I have not shot either round.

I know 223 ammunition is plentiful an relatively cheap. That said, I would shoot less than 100 rounds per year, and likely less than 50 rounds on some years.

I also read that it is common to be able to see your impacts with the 204. Is this also possible with the 223?

I read the 204 is capable of 4000+ fps. How quick is the 223 and would I notice the difference in the real world? I would use this rifle as a gopher vaporizer out to 150 yrds and coyotes out to 250. I'm not very confident shooting past 250 so I usually pass on those shots and try to put myself into my comfort zone or wait for a better opportunity.

Thanks in advance.

If you want a 204 Ruger I have one all set up complete with scope and dies. I will supply you with my load data for the 39 grain BK bullet which decimates gophers and shoots 1/3 MOA group at 300 yards. The 39 BK is reported to be too fragile for coyotes.I also have a load that shoots 1/2 MOA with the 32 Hornady V-Max at over 4200 f/s. This is reputed to be a very efficient coyote load.

I would keep it for myself but prefer my 20 EXTREME. I was going to make it into a 20 EXTREME but hate to rebarrel a rifle that shoots this well.


PM me if you are interested and can come to downtown Edmonton for reloading lessons. I live about 4 blocks from P&D.

[gitrdun]

Personally I'm a fan of the .223. Now, I've never owned a .204 so I cannot comment on personal experience. But I do know a couple of guys that shoot them and they report that they needle barrel cleaning quite often.

[Duramaximos]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

If you want a 204 Ruger I have one all set up complete with scope and dies. I will supply you with my load data for the 39 grain BK bullet which decimates gophers and shoots 1/3 MOA group at 300 yards. The 39 BK is reported to be too fragile for coyotes.I also have a load that shoots 1/2 MOA with the 32 Hornady V-Max at over 4200 f/s. This is reputed to be a very efficient coyote load.

I would keep it for myself but prefer my 20 EXTREME. I was going to make it into a 20 EXTREME but hate to rebarrel a rifle that shoots this well.


PM me if you are interested and can come to downtown Edmonton for reloading lessons. I live about 4 blocks from P&D.

Very very tempting offer. I wish you lived about 300kms south.
Lut me mull it over.

[Duramaximos]

As I delve deeper into these calibres I'm notcing some folks are concerned about the accuracy of the 204. Specfically, when reloading for top speed the accuracy can deteriorate moreso than most.

Is there a logical reason for this? If I choose the 204, reloading will be a must. I don't want my first experience with reloading to be a struggle.

Thanks.

[shooter55]

I'd get one of each...after hanging with Dean2 and his expertise, my gun lockers have grown..223, 22-250, 22 hornet among the many others...can't discount a 221 fireball, 17 fireball or 204 in the future.....
reloading is the key, it will reduce your ammo cost and allow you to build some great loads.
you really can't make a bad decision, in my mind...if you don't have a 223, I would start there....my humble opinion.

[Faststeel]

Originally Posted by Duramaximos

As I delve deeper into these calibres I'm notcing some folks are concerned about the accuracy of the 204. Specfically, when reloading for top speed the accuracy can deteriorate moreso than most.

Is there a logical reason for this? If I choose the 204, reloading will be a must. I don't want my first experience with reloading to be a struggle.

Thanks.

I think that loading for the 204 is one of the easiest cartridges to load for. We use Varget for the 39 and 40gr bullets and there are a number of different powders guys use with the 32gr bullets. It was one of the first calibers I loaded for and the ammo was very accurate. I seldom load for max velocity. FS

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Duramaximos

As I delve deeper into these calibres I'm notcing some folks are concerned about the accuracy of the 204. Specfically, when reloading for top speed the accuracy can deteriorate moreso than most.

Is there a logical reason for this? If I choose the 204, reloading will be a must. I don't want my first experience with reloading to be a struggle.

Thanks.

I was very frustrated with my first attempt to find an accurate load in a 204 Ruger. After trying 50 different powder combinations and wasting 250 rounds in my brothers Rem 700 VSSF II I settled on a 3/4" group with the 32 V-Max at about 4100 fps. I had just finished load workup with my 20 EXTREME and had shot about 750 rounds at 153 targets, under all conditions, and had a group aggregate average of 0.67". I vowed to not waste any more time on the 204 Ruger and concentrate on my extremely accurate and efficient 20 caliber wildcat.

I came to the conclusion that the 204 Ruger case was too large for the faster burning powders with the 32 grain bullets and that the 24", 1-12, barrels were too short to burn the slower powders and stabilize the 40 grain bullets. Another problem was the large amount of free-bore, especially with the 32 grain bullets, and the fact that the clip was too short to accommodate the 40 grain bullets in most rifles.

This spring I acquired a 204 Ruger rifle that would not shoot good groups for its former owner. My plan was to have it re-chambered to 20 EXTREME. As it is going to be awhile until the re-chamber job is performed I began to do extensive research to find loads that would work in this rifle. After much time and effort in research and load development I have found a couple of very good recipes for this particular rifle. They do very well in Fasteel's rifle, which is the exact make and model, although his rifle shoots them over 100 fps slower than my rifle.

My 20 EXTREME was developed to eliminate all of the inherent problems that I mentioned in the 204 Ruger. It is very versatile in that I can run the 32 grain bullets from 20 Vartarg velocities to near the velocities mentioned in my 204 Ruger with 20.3 to 23.1 grains of powder. I can do the same with the 39 and 40 grain bullets using only 20.4 to 22.1 grains of powder. I am attaching some targets with Winchester and Remington brass that illustrate my point. You will note that virtually every accurate load is just 0.1 to 0.2 grains below a full case.
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG][/IMG]

I hope that this addresses your concerns and answers your questions. My offer to get your started loading with my 204 Ruger will take out the frustrations that you surely will face if you start out on your own. It will be well worth the trip and a day of your time.

[Slash8]

Originally Posted by Faststeel

D max

I have a couple of each of these calibers. For seeing hits through the scope you need a heavy barrel in 223. Most 204's come in HB models. Not cheap to shoot if you do not reload.

I own one of each as well and I agree that reloading is the key to cheaper shooting with the .204 how ever in my own opinion have found that the .204 out performs the .223 hands down. loading for the .204 was relativly easy and I had a load narrowed down quite quickly. (Federal Match grade 205 primers, Hornady Brass. 29grs of Varget powder, 32gr Hornady V-max Bullets and a C.O.L of 2.265" Shot out of a Ruger M77markII target with a 1-12 twist 26" barrel) Group sizes average .25 to .50 at 200M, longest shot to date on a gopher was 416 meters and it took two shots, I'm sure there are others that have shot further but it's my personal best and I'm happy with that. My .223 is my coyote gun, it has a few more options when it comes to bullet weights and models, I find it is not as accurate as my .204 but as far as I'm concerned if you can hit a tennis ball sized target out to 300 meters with either one your doing okay and a quarter or half inch isn't going to matter any way. have fun with what ever choice you make