School me on Lithium batteries

[Camdec]

Hi folks,

I’m considering getting a couple 12v lithium batteries for my 24v trolling motor. I don’t have an onboard charger and the lighter weight and longer run time is really appealing when I’m offloading to charge. I run a fiberglass ski/fish, but like to bottom bounce later in the season. When I use the bow mount trolling motor it may be for a total of 8 hours over a weekend max. From what I see the price goes up based on amp hours, so it’s pretty Greek to me as to what I need. Any recommendations are appreciated.

[Moosetalker]

2 things to figure out before you buy.

1 How many watts does your motor pull at the average trolling speed you use. Might be able to get that info online.

2 How much money are you willing to part with. 24 volt will require either a single 24 volt battery or a pair of 12 volt in series.

I run a 12 volt Minn Kota Endura 32lb on my cartopper I use a pair of 12volt LPO4 one usually lasts 8 hrs and I recharge it of of a solar panel back at camp while I'm out with the second battery.

LPO4 is definitely the way to go.

[Dean2]

My suggestion, stick to Lead acid. Lithium batteries in a boat is not my idea of a good option. Biggest issues with them is they don't like partial charges, have very little output when discharged to 50%, overheat easily when charging and if you get a battery fire, water makes it 5 times worse. Lead acid, solar charge is a good option, it is not on Lithium. Two lead acids should easily run that trolling motor for 8 hours.

[elkhunter11]

The main advantages to Lithium is they weigh so much less, they last longer, and they charge quicker. They are great for deep cycle applications, but not suited to sudden , high amperage loads, like cranking engines.You do need to be careful charging them though. Another option is an AGM battery, much longer life than a standard lead acid battery, and they charge quicker, than a standard lead acid battery.

[AlbertanGP]

Originally Posted by Dean2

My suggestion, stick to Lead acid. Lithium batteries in a boat is not my idea of a good option. Biggest issues with them is they don't like partial charges

They actually love partial charges. Do your research and you'll see partial charges reduce stress and prolong battery life.

have very little output when discharged to 50%

That is flat out wrong. The biggest advantage of lithium batteries is their ability to maintain their power delivery regardless of depletion. A lithium battery at 5% remaining charge will provide as much power as a fully charged battery.

overheat easily when charging

Get a proper charger approved by the manufacturer for charging your lithium battery. I have never had an issue with anything overheating with lithium batteries. With lead acid it happens all the time...I have a lead acid SeaDoo battery in the shop right now that needs topping up after I put a charger on it and it started heating up.

Lithium battery chargers are also a lot "smarter" than normal chargers and have built in protection against overcharging and overheating.




tldr; Lithium battery banks far outstrip conventional lead acid in any trolling motor bank application unless you are for some reason looking to add weight to your system for ballast. I'm in the process of swapping my three Costco deep cycle batteries and MinnKota MK 345PC charger to three Amped Outdoors 12V 160Ah batteries and the MinnKota MK 345PCL charger designed and approved for them.

This is the same unfounded resistance to electric augers we went through over the past few years. Now it's widely accepted that electric augers outperform gas by a substantial margin. The same will hold true for Lithium trolling motor batteries over the next couple of seasons.

[Dean2]

AlbertaGP - depends entirely on what voltage you need to operate something.



As far as partial charges, it is correct that if you charge a 12 volt lithium to 11.5 volts, you will get a lot more cycles out of it. Here is a chart of life cycles.



You are also correct that a lithium that is discharged 30% and then recharged will last a lot longer than one discharge 70% and then recharged. In the OPs case, he does not have the ability to charge the batteries while he is fishing so he is likely to discharge the battery a long ways, and that would shorten its life. I do not know of a solar charger for lithium, but there are lots for AGM or lead acid. If you assume a 20 Amp Hour Battery, 1000 cycles at 30% discharge is 6000 running hours while 400 cycles at a 50% discharge is 4000 running hours. Sort of depends how you look at it. It also explains why EV vehicle battery life is so dependant on how much the battery is discharged in a day of use.

[Coiloil37]

Dean

Perhaps you should do some research before dispensing opinion. You’re flat out wrong on pretty much everything you’ve mentioned and your charts/graphs/pictures miss the mark completely.

For example, a lithium at 11.5 volts is pretty much dead as they maintain very consistent voltage above 13 volts until the bitter end.

There are also PLENTY of solar chargers available for lithium. Mine is a 40 amp dc dc with one feed from my starting battery and then a second input for solar which doubles as the mppt charger.

The LiFePO4 don’t have the fire issues the old tech had so put that to bed as well.

I’m not interested in picking the rest apart, maybe do some unbiased research.

[Dean2]

Well, if new tech in lithium batteries makes my knowledge obsolete then it is a very good thing that the new ones work so much better. Look forward to reading the information posted by all you guys that are up on the latest info. Always happy to learn new stuff.

[Cross Eyed Cowboy]

Excellent Site

https://batteryuniversity.com/articles

[Camdec]

Originally Posted by Cross Eyed Cowboy

Excellent Site

https://batteryuniversity.com/articles

Holy cow. That is a lot of information. Any recommended vendors in Edmonton for a couple 12v boxes?

[Walleyedude]

Lithium is the way to go, now that I'm onboard, I can't imagine going back to lead acid or AGM.

I'd contact Alberta Lithium, I own several of their batteries and I've been very impressed with them.

You can't go wrong with their prices and their customer service is top notch.

https://www.ablithium.ca/

[mapleleafman3]

Originally Posted by Walleyedude

Lithium is the way to go, now that I'm onboard, I can't imagine going back to lead acid or AGM.

I'd contact Alberta Lithium, I own several of their batteries and I've been very impressed with them.

You can't go wrong with their prices and their customer service is top notch.

https://www.ablithium.ca/

I agree. Great price and great service.

[Jamie Black R/T]

I went with all Dakota Lithiums this year due to a good relationship and the fact johnson outdoors now distributes them in Canada.

Had a small hiccup with a 36v 60ah single battery not being compatible with my ulterra...but Dakota ponied up and replaced it. Even upgraded me to a 100ah bank of 3 batteries at no charge and within a couple days.

Stellar service so far.

Ill never go back. The weight savings alone is worth it. shaving over 200lbs off the boat is great bonus and two full days of run time on the bow mount between charges is amazing. Could likely get another near full day honestly after two 6 to 8 hour days my meter still shows them at 45% or so.

[stubblejumper01]

My neighbour at the lake bought some new lithium batteries for his pontoon boat.
He has the Ulterra trolling motor the nice one that auto deploys. One of his batteries died while fishing and he couldn’t retract it so they had to dismantle the mount to get the Ulterra out of the water to return to the dock. He’s been waiting about 2 weeks now for the replacement to arrive.
My take is purchase as locally as you can, there have been some good recommendations here already.

[Jamie Black R/T]

Originally Posted by stubblejumper01

My neighbour at the lake bought some new lithium batteries for his pontoon boat.
He has the Ulterra trolling motor the nice one that auto deploys. One of his batteries died while fishing and he couldn’t retract it so they had to dismantle the mount to get the Ulterra out of the water to return to the dock. He’s been waiting about 2 weeks now for the replacement to arrive.
My take is purchase as locally as you can, there have been some good recommendations here already.

I've seen 5 or 6 ulterras hauled back to the dock this way with lead acid batteries too.

its a chance you take for convenience. They aren't known to be bulletproof...but when they work, man is it nice to deploy from your seat.

[stubblejumper01]

Originally Posted by Jamie Black R/T

I've seen 5 or 6 ulterras hauled back to the dock this way with lead acid batteries too.

its a chance you take for convenience. They aren't known to be bulletproof...but when they work, man is it nice to deploy from your seat.

That’s true I’ve seen lead acid ones die also. Tom had been very happy with them until that point. He has a 25’ pontoon boat and with his old batteries he would often run out of power. With the lithium batteries he was able to get 2 days before recharging. He saved a fair bit of money by buying in the states but now regrets not purchasing them locally. He had a bunch of company and they almost always trolled with bottom bouncers. Now they are learning new techniques so it’s not all bad

[Camdec]

I appreciate everyone’s opinions. I’ve reached out to AB lithium.

[Mr Flyguy]

I use a 54amh Dakota to run a MinnKota on the canoe. Had a AGM 12V before that but the lower weight sold me.

Interestingly enough, with the Dakota the battery power indicator lights on the motor always show full charge until nothing left in battery. So I have to remember to charge up after every outing since had to row back to the launch site the last two outings.

[Big Sky]

Your lithium battery operates at a higher voltage than a lead acid battery making your trolling motor's voltage indicator of little use.

A basic multimeter can keep you informed about the remaining charge in your battery.

State of charge chart for 12v LiFe battery

[Coiloil37]

If your BMS doesn’t have Bluetooth just get a victron smart shunt. Assuming you boomers can use a smart phone.


If not, get a monitor similar to this and mount it on the dash.










It’s pretty easy to monitor your batteries health these days and it’s not that expensive. No need to be guessing or stranded.

[Jamie Black R/T]

Originally Posted by Coiloil37

If your BMS doesn’t have Bluetooth just get a victron smart shunt. Assuming you boomers can use a smart phone.


It’s pretty easy to monitor your batteries health these days and it’s not that expensive. No need to be guessing or stranded.

I put the victron smart shunt on my dakota 36v bank and its awesome. Highly recommend.

[ragweed]

Well I finally bit the bullet and installed twin lithium 12v 100ah batteries for my minnkota. (Replacing twin group 27 agm’s). Immediately I noticed a huge difference in boat performance but that is because the only spot I could install them was at the stern on one side. I was able to put them through a good test today with about 5 hrs of trolling and maybe 1 hr of anchoring. Small wind/chop today. At the end of the day I still had 86% life left. Consider me very impressed. I purchased through LiTime on Amazon due to cost and good BMS reviews. So far so good. Love the Bluetooth access. They also seem to work very well with my Noco onboard charger.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jamie Black R/T]

I just spent a week in BC.

Used the Ipilot for 4 days of fishing.

No wind at all but 6 to 7 hours daily either spot locked or using the ulterra to steer while down rigging.

Didn't have to charge the batteries at all. When I got home I logged onto my victron shunt and they are showing 64% still.

I would have been charging daily with lead acid batteries. Which is tough to do when tied to a dock in remote northern BC.

[SNAPFisher]

Originally Posted by Jamie Black R/T

I just spent a week in BC.

Used the Ipilot for 4 days of fishing.

No wind at all but 6 to 7 hours daily either spot locked or using the ulterra to steer while down rigging.

Didn't have to charge the batteries at all. When I got home I logged onto my victron shunt and they are showing 64% still.

I would have been charging daily with lead acid batteries. Which is tough to do when tied to a dock in remote northern BC.

Daaaaaaaaaamn! That is a nice stat. Thanks.

[Jamie Black R/T]

One thing I should note. I went with dakota dual purpose lithiums for the starting and house battery also.

Had some hiccups in doing this.

#1 : my isolator doesn't work. Running the main or kicker motor does not charge the house lithium. It charges the starting battery no issue but doesn't trigger the isolator to combine the banks. Likely need to upgrade to a newer unit. A blue sea ACR or something. Will look into this over the winter.

#2 : Cannon downriggers CANNOT be run from a lithium with an alternator charging it. Makes the downrigger go nuts. Lifts and lowers at it own discretion...whenever it wants.. About tore a finger off coming to this realization. Too many volts? I dunno but swapping back to a lead acid battery fixed that issue. Running the riggers from the dakota was fine as long as there was no charging current applied to that battery.

[AlbertanGP]

Originally Posted by Jamie Black R/T

#2 : Cannon downriggers CANNOT be run from a lithium with an alternator charging it. Makes the downrigger go nuts. Lifts and lowers at it own discretion...whenever it wants.. About tore a finger off coming to this realization. Too many volts? I dunno but swapping back to a lead acid battery fixed that issue. Running the riggers from the dakota was fine as long as there was no charging current applied to that battery.

Thanks for the heads up. I'll test for this issue this weeknd when I install my lithiums before heading 100km up the lake to fish.

[Jamie Black R/T]

Originally Posted by AlbertanGP

Thanks for the heads up. I'll test for this issue this weeknd when I install my lithiums before heading 100km up the lake to fish.

Curious if your findings were the same?

[AlbertanGP]

I haven't been out yet since installing them. It may be a non-issue though as my 36v bank is a separate system not charged by my alternator. Personally, I expect the Cannons to be fine and the MotorGuide Xi5 to find some reason to act up (worse).

[Jamie Black R/T]

Originally Posted by AlbertanGP

I haven't been out yet since installing them. It may be a non-issue though as my 36v bank is a separate system not charged by my alternator. Personally, I expect the Cannons to be fine and the MotorGuide Xi5 to find some reason to act up (worse).

I see. Should be fine mine worked fine even on lithium as long as there was no charging current applied.

tight lines