22 ammo inconsistencies. Cci std.

[glen moa]

Just a note. I’m having group troubles with cci std. seams like the ammo is not the same as it used to be. Tried two 22s. 25y groups are 1/2”. More testing required.
It seams like just when you get a 22 perfect something happens and you’re back to square one.

[3blade]

Well that’s disappointing to hear. I just got a box to test based on all the good things I heard. Guess we will see how it goes. Still have enough old stock minimag to keep the varmits out of the yard.

[glen moa]

I should add.
Three different shooters too. My son was disgusted.

[elkhunter11]

I have had decent accuracy with CCI Standard, but SK Standard Plus has always done better for me. And there is always some lot to lot variances.

[wallz]

For one reason or another, I have never had any luck with the cci ammo, in any of my 10/22's.

I was printing some nice groups today at 100m with RWS.

[Dean2]

There have always been lot to lot differences, even in top ammo. Competitive shooters have lot tested for decades. Even in the less expensive ammo, you see differences in lots. Right now, ALL makers of 22 RF are cranking out ammo as fast as they possibly can. What used to be top notch ammo, like Eley, has lots of reports of poor groups, flyers and inconsistent loads. If you scan the Rimfire Central forum, you see the same complaints about Winchester, Remington, Eley etc. I believe that as supplies stabilise we will see a return to better QC and more consistent ammo. I posted some ammo test targets on the 1710 Anschutz thread. You can clearly see differences in the groups by brand and quality of the ammo.

http://www.outdoorsmenforum.ca/showt...=429433&page=2

For now, I would buy a couple of 50 round boxes and test shoot it, before stocking up on a large order of any ammo. The trick is getting the retailer to hold a case of ammo of the same lot for you while you test shoot the first 2 boxes. Places like Nordic, and Precision are more likely to do that for you than CT.

[Dean2]

Speaking of ammo inconsistency, this just showed up in my feed. There are a ton of similar threads over the past couple of years.

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/threa...#post-13337070

[Homesteader]

One thing to consider is ambient temps. Rimfire does not like colder temps, with a little luck maybe it’ll fair better in warmer weather.

[Dmay]

As knowledgably stated above, 22 rimfire ammo is very touchy with regard to accuracy, and subject to many variances, requiring rigorous testing within brands and batches to determine consistency to any degree. Expecting very much from lower level ammo like CCI standard velocity isn't very realistic, depending of course on the quality of the firearm used. In many run-of-the mill common guns, the difference may not be discernible enough to make accurate judgements.

[glen moa]

For myself I like 1/2” at 50y. This gives me enough accuracy to hit little candies and tums at 50y. This is enough of a challenge to make sure im shooting good. If a 22 is going to do 1” at 50y then it’s no test of my skills. The constant battle with ammo is wasting my time. I like guns that shoot good every time I take them out. The quest continues.

[Groundhogger]

CCI SV isn't target ammo, but shoots pretty well in most guns. Almost all the 22s I have.

One thing I have noticed, when I run it through my "best" gun, you can see the inconsistencies pretty clearly. Through everything else, results are pretty consistent but through that gun, few rounds touching...one 3/4" or more off. lol

Stepping-up the ammo quality is really priority one. CCI SV is great for what it is, and why we all mostly have/use it. My favorite ammo has to be SK Rifle Match. I don't consider it "match" ammo, it's around $12-$13/50 but through that same gun, it's obvious that SK RM is very decent, and lacks the fliers.

If I'm ringing steel targets, I don't pump SK rifle match through anything but if I'm trying to print tight groups, it usually delivers. RWS R50 was the very best, looked like the first 3 shots went through the same hole @ 50 yards, but it's $30/50 rounds +/-. Don't need tight groups that badly. lol

[ScottFitter]

I tried CCI SV, 3 different Eley varieties from $10-22 a box, and some S&B Canadian Match, in a fairly recent purchase. CCI SV was probably the worst of what I tried in that rifle, but it's the best in the wife's 22lr. I havent tried the $22 Eley Team in hers, but with a slightly gusting 15-20km 3/4ish value wind, I was 5/8" groups at 50 yards. I havent shot much through it yet.

Lot testing is very important with precision in mind, but CCI SV seems to be the bottom level of competition grade ammo for a lot of people. I'd use it in a pinch for the ORPS series on any target except the KYL racks which are at 25 yards. ORLS only goes out to 100 yards, typically with a 6" round plate out that far.
I'd use them for gophers as well.
NRL22 events, shooting 200+ yards, I'm using Eley Team or better. I can't find any SK locally, but I want to try that as well. Even Long Range Match seems to go for $11-13 a box.

[Groundhogger]

Originally Posted by ScottFitter

I tried CCI SV, 3 different Eley varieties from $10-22 a box, and some S&B Canadian Match, in a fairly recent purchase. CCI SV was probably the worst of what I tried in that rifle, but it's the best in the wife's 22lr. I havent tried the $22 Eley Team in hers, but with a slightly gusting 15-20km 3/4ish value wind, I was 5/8" groups at 50 yards. I havent shot much through it yet.

Lot testing is very important with precision in mind, but CCI SV seems to be the bottom level of competition grade ammo for a lot of people. I'd use it in a pinch for the ORPS series on any target except the KYL racks which are at 25 yards. ORLS only goes out to 100 yards, typically with a 6" round plate out that far.
I'd use them for gophers as well.
NRL22 events, shooting 200+ yards, I'm using Eley Team or better. I can't find any SK locally, but I want to try that as well. Even Long Range Match seems to go for $11-13 a box.

That's interesting. I commented the way I did because I was wondering whether or not there were unrealistic expectations on ammo in the $6/50 price range. I haven't shot 22 for months and the last few times I did, I was shooting SK Rifle Match and CCI Velocitor. Haven't been paying much attention to CCI SV, but always have it with me.

Is the consensus that something has slipped with QC?

[ScottFitter]

I don't think it had anything to do with QC, but more to do with the barrel. It's no different than a 22 that like SK Rifle Match but won't group with SK Long Range. Add in lot testing of the Dane ammo and you really have a lot to deal with for precision.

When I say it was the worst, it was maybe an inch at 50 yards on a breezy day. But Eley Team was 5/8" at 50 yards under the same conditions after 20 fouling shots.

[catnthehat]

I had a long talk with with an industry rep in the late 90's about .22LR accuracy as far as ultra accurate ammo quality and sorting for match rifles.
I was told that the biggest variable was the crimp - it was the only thing the manufacturers could not adjust for, and the only way to lot test for accuracy was by destructive testing( firing). When I asked about rim thickness sorting , I was told that even sorting with a precise gauge did not yield the variables that the crimp did.

I was also told that tuning ( yes, they had tuners back then) would not turn average ammo into good ammo .
There is always going to be a certain amount of outlying shots( flyers) in a group. On a good barrel however , tuning the barrel or adjusting the bed pressure can to an extent minimize outliers.
Better quality ammo will also have fewer outliers closer to the center of the group.
The only thing a person can do is shoot a selection of ammo and buy a large amount of it in the same lot .
I have found that in a good rifle built for extreme accuracy with a bench rest quality scope and good bags, the difference between excellent ammo brands can be small but noticeable , but not so much when an average rifle and scope are used .
Cat

[32-40win]

Oddly enough, Bryan Litz did an interview at SHOT with UR, about a paper he will be releasing/maybe has released already, about the research he is doing on .22 ammo and it's ballistics tendencies vs sound barrier and subsonic crossover.
It's interesting , explains a lot of stuff as why 22 ammo can be so fickle. This vid only got put up yesterday, paper may be out already;



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uMjjWdPcnXA

[ScottFitter]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I had a long talk with with an industry rep in the late 90's about .22LR accuracy as far as ultra accurate ammo quality and sorting for match rifles.
I was told that the biggest variable was the crimp - it was the only thing the manufacturers could not adjust for, and the only way to lot test for accuracy was by destructive testing( firing). When I asked about rim thickness sorting , I was told that even sorting with a precise gauge did not yield the variables that the crimp did.

I was also told that tuning ( yes, they had tuners back then) would not turn average ammo into good ammo .
There is always going to be a certain amount of outlying shots( flyers) in a group. On a good barrel however , tuning the barrel or adjusting the bed pressure can to an extent minimize outliers.
Better quality ammo will also have fewer outliers closer to the center of the group.
The only thing a person can do is shoot a selection of ammo and buy a large amount of it in the same lot .
I have found that in a good rifle built for extreme accuracy with a bench rest quality scope and good bags, the difference between excellent ammo brands can be small but noticeable , but not so much when an average rifle and scope are used .
Cat

Eley I'm sure tests crimp as part of their QC line. Three things they test for is consistency of velocity, precision, and case pressure, at least in their Team/Match/Tenex line up. Tenex being the highest grade in that line of ammo. It all comes off the same machines in the same lot, using the same bullet.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by ScottFitter

Eley I'm sure tests crimp as part of their QC line. Three things they test for is consistency of velocity, precision, and case pressure, at least in their Team/Match/Tenex line up. Tenex being the highest grade in that line of ammo. It all comes off the same machines in the same lot, using the same bullet.

C.I.L.had the Franchise for Eley ammunition when I spoke to the rep, and yes they in depth tests, but it is done by testing samples out of a given lot by destructive testing , there is no other way to do it by to measure bullet pull and by shooting the ammo.
That is how theircdiffetent grades are sorted.
Cat

[glen moa]

Update
I ran out of the cci std so I started a new box. After I shot a box the groups tightened up to were they used to be (.5” @50y)
It could be it doesn’t like a super clean barrel or the ammo was different.
I looked but I don’t have any of the old stuff so I can’t rule that out.
Happy now that it’s working.

[barsik]

Along with lot to lot variability, I've found rimfire ammo to be very temperature sensitive. as the mercury goes down so does the accuracy.

[marxman]

Originally Posted by Dean2

Speaking of ammo inconsistency, this just showed up in my feed. There are a ton of similar threads over the past couple of years.

https://www.rimfirecentral.com/threa...#post-13337070

That guy is a good communicater, on and on,blah blah blah, and all good information

[pikergolf]

If a guy wants to shoot his .22lr into 1 moa consistently the only option is European ammo brands. Start at SK match and work your way up. 1 moa consistently is difficult for rimfires until you spend a pile of money.

[3blade]

Originally Posted by glen moa

Update
I ran out of the cci std so I started a new box. After I shot a box the groups tightened up to were they used to be (.5” @50y)
It could be it doesn’t like a super clean barrel or the ammo was different.
I looked but I don’t have any of the old stuff so I can’t rule that out.
Happy now that it’s working.

I ran some SV though a mk2 and a 10/22. Groups were consistently .75” but not any better than minimag from those guns. Probably not good enough barrels to see a difference anyway. Most of my misses at 100+ are low so I’ll take the extra velocity.