Cost of Natural Gas vs Electric Heating

[Bergerboy]

Looking at my last set of bills we have the following.
I used 10.16Gj of natural gas, the price was $27.51.
My electricity provider charged me $0.19625kWh.
10.16Gj converted to kWh is 2822kWh.
This means the same energy that costs $27.51 would cost $553.82.
Lets pretend the grid can handle the extra electricity and no increase in transmission costs, this increase would cripple many households.
I wonder if our "green friends" realize the financial impact that would burden the masses.

[elkhunter11]

Wait until the prices go up to pay for the grid upgrades and new generating stations, they add a tax to replace the fuel tax, and you are charging EVs, and the bill wiil be way over $1000, perhaps $1500.

[big zeke]

They don't know and they won't care...this is the nature of virtue signaling, righteousness at all costs.

I've often said, the most expensive form of energy most of us will touch is electricity. Limitless quantities available at the flick of a switch, ya gotta know the convenience comes at a cost. I expect the figures shown will only go up, power grids don't expand for nothing and in all cases the end user is the only payer (directly or via taxes).

Punting these imbeciles will feel so good...the posturing is getting too much.

Zeke

[FCLightning]

I made a spreadsheet that will quickly show you the comparative pricing of all the different forms of heating if you know your landed cost (not the price per unit, but the actual cost of a unit to get it to your heating device). For the latest bills that just came in my landed cost on Nat. Gas was $10.12/GJ and for electricity was $0.225/kWh. At those prices electricity would be just shy of 6X the cost of NatGas to heat the house. Even with the most efficient geothermal heat pump it would still be more expensive to heat with electricity. If you can get Spruce firewood to your stove for $125/cord it would cost the same to heat your house with wood as it would be for Gas. If you are heating with electricity you could afford to pay $750/cord for Spruce firewood and still be even.

[FCLightning]

It seems to be hard to find online quotes for Heating Fuel, but the one I did find was $1.90/litre. At that price electricity at $0.225 is pretty much a wash. If your only options were electricity or heating fuel, a heat pump would look attractive, even if they aren't terribly efficient in our climate.

[HyperMOA]

Originally Posted by FCLightning

I made a spreadsheet that will quickly show you the comparative pricing of all the different forms of heating if you know your landed cost (not the price per unit, but the actual cost of a unit to get it to your heating device). For the latest bills that just came in my landed cost on Nat. Gas was $10.12/GJ and for electricity was $0.225/kWh. At those prices electricity would be just shy of 6X the cost of NatGas to heat the house. Even with the most efficient geothermal heat pump it would still be more expensive to heat with electricity. If you can get Spruce firewood to your stove for $125/cord it would cost the same to heat your house with wood as it would be for Gas. If you are heating with electricity you could afford to pay $750/cord for Spruce firewood and still be even.

What is your spreadsheet telling us the cost of propane would be? I really consider converting to propane just to disconnect from the grid.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

What is your spreadsheet telling us the cost of propane would be? I really consider converting to propane just to disconnect from the grid.

Assuming you have the same efficiency in your heating system with both propane and natgas. With a landed cost of $10.12 for natgas (total amount billed/Gj consumed) you would need to pay less than $0.26/litre for your propane delivered to your tank. If you are currently heating with radiant electric heat at $0.225/kWh delivered cost on electricity, then you could pay $1.50/litre for propane in a 96% efficient furnace and still break even.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by HyperMOA

What is your spreadsheet telling us the cost of propane would be? I really consider converting to propane just to disconnect from the grid.

If you are talking about installing a propane fired generator to replace your electrical service, that is a different animal. Generac shows that their 7500 Watt generator consumes 5.37 litres/hr at full load. Using those numbers the break even point in propane pricing would be $0.31/litre delivered for propane to be equal $0.225/kWh landed cost on electricity. In real life you would need to be somewhat cheaper than the 31 cents to account for the maintenance costs of your generator.

[jef612]

2 points to consider - and obviously this will stir the pot but I will drop it in anyway:

1) Current gas furnaces are often 95-99% efficient - meaning 95% of the gas burnt in your furnace is being used to actually heat the home. The waste heat (1-5%) goes out the vent pipe as warm exhaust.
Heat pumps move heat (air conditioner in reverse) - they don't create it (like a little plug in "glowing orange element" resistance heater) . So "efficiency ratings" can be greater than 100% and that is where the drive to switch to heat pumps is coming from. Instead of pumping 8000 watts of electricity into straight electric resistance heating - your heat pump uses something less (say 6000 for arguments sake) to deliver that same 8000 watts worth of heat. That said - there are a number of factors that make the current heat pump market unappealing to the prairie customer, cost being one of them No need to rehash that debate for my sake.


2) Your calculation uses today's rates to create a comparison that shows it is cheaper to heat with gas than electricity. I don't think anyone disputes this. However - this doesn't tell the whole story. Your calculation should show the comparison considering the rates if each over the lifecycle of the appliance, including maintenance / repairs. When you factor in the projected carbon tax over the next 2 decades - those calculations change significantly. Hence the liberal argument to raise carbon tax to "even the playing field" and make heat pumps comparable to heating with gas carbon. That calculation gets a little muddy since its hard to predict what is going to happen politically in the next 20 years... But in reality that has to be factored in the equation in some form.

Just a nugget of info that I though was worth being considered here.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by jef612

2 points to consider - and obviously this will stir the pot but I will drop it in anyway:

1) Current gas furnaces are often 95-99% efficient - meaning 95% of the gas burnt in your furnace is being used to actually heat the home. The waste heat (1-5%) goes out the vent pipe as warm exhaust.
Heat pumps move heat (air conditioner in reverse) - they don't create it (like a little plug in "glowing orange element" resistance heater) . So "efficiency ratings" can be greater than 100% and that is where the drive to switch to heat pumps is coming from. Instead of pumping 8000 watts of electricity into straight electric resistance heating - your heat pump uses something less (say 6000 for arguments sake) to deliver that same 8000 watts worth of heat. That said - there are a number of factors that make the current heat pump market unappealing to the prairie customer, cost being one of them No need to rehash that debate for my sake.


2) Your calculation uses today's rates to create a comparison that shows it is cheaper to heat with gas than electricity. I don't think anyone disputes this. However - this doesn't tell the whole story. Your calculation should show the comparison considering the rates if each over the lifecycle of the appliance, including maintenance / repairs. When you factor in the projected carbon tax over the next 2 decades - those calculations change significantly. Hence the liberal argument to raise carbon tax to "even the playing field" and make heat pumps comparable to heating with gas carbon. That calculation gets a little muddy since its hard to predict what is going to happen politically in the next 20 years... But in reality that has to be factored in the equation in some form.

Just a nugget of info that I though was worth being considered here.

Electricity rates will go up the same as heating with natural gas as carbon tax is applied equally to feedstock to generating stations be it coal or natural gas. Windmills and solar are irrelevant as the contribution to the grid from them is minute. Power has gone up significantly.

My nat gas bills are tolerable, power bill not so much

[jef612]

Correct - as long a power is generated from carbon.
In the prairies - until power generation changes to something not based on carbon - the only thing we are going to see is rising rates on both meters.

[MountainTi]

Originally Posted by jef612

Correct - as long a power is generated from carbon.
In the prairies - until power generation changes to something not based on carbon - the only thing we are going to see is rising rates on both meters.

Correct. Unless a nuclear reactor or 3 are built in Alberta rates will climb continuously with the carbon tax in place and regular increase as natural gas is our power for a long long time. Nothing else to take the place of it. To think otherwise is absurd

[Big Grey Wolf]

Guys with All the wildfires in Canada and especially in Alberta we now have thousands of acres of dry fire killed wood. Thus by far best economics will be wood heating hands down.

[FCLightning]

Originally Posted by jef612

2) Your calculation uses today's rates to create a comparison that shows it is cheaper to heat with gas than electricity. I don't think anyone disputes this. However - this doesn't tell the whole story. Your calculation should show the comparison considering the rates if each over the lifecycle of the appliance, including maintenance / repairs. When you factor in the projected carbon tax over the next 2 decades - those calculations change significantly. Hence the liberal argument to raise carbon tax to "even the playing field" and make heat pumps comparable to heating with gas carbon. That calculation gets a little muddy since its hard to predict what is going to happen politically in the next 20 years... But in reality that has to be factored in the equation in some form.

Just a nugget of info that I though was worth being considered here.

Maybe 25 years ago I went to a solar power/net zero workshop. At that time they were using some pretty alarming graphs on the projected rising costs of electricity and the obvious advantage of "free" electricity from solar. Needless to say those predictions were totally out to lunch, used only as a scare tactic to get folks to throw their money down.
The carbon tax may level the playing field, but not really as electricity prices have no choice but to rise with the rising costs of fossil fuels - we have no other viable options in the near future. I could re-do the calculations using the current price of "green" energy if you want to crystal ball into the future - we will need a significant amount more "carbon tax" than is currently planned into the future if we wish to level that playing field. And of course, if we are to project into the future we will definitely have to factor in the rising cost of distribution and transmission fees that will be necessary to pay for all the capital input into the grid system to handle the increased loading. At this time I feel that factoring in future pricing on the fossil fuels and electricity costs is pretty much a wash - just as it was 25ish years ago.

[Bushrat]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Guys with All the wildfires in Canada and especially in Alberta we now have thousands of acres of dry fire killed wood. Thus by far best economics will be wood heating hands down.

Only problem with that is many municipalities are banning the use of wood stoves, furnaces, etc., for heating. They say it is the highest polluting source of any heating type.

Already started this in Montreal.
https://montrealgazette.com/news/loc...u-need-to-know

[KGB]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Guys with All the wildfires in Canada and especially in Alberta we now have thousands of acres of dry fire killed wood. Thus by far best economics will be wood heating hands down.

And I love the smell of the wood burning fireplaces and heating ovens in the air!

[W921]

Have any of u looked into a natural gas generator that would charge batteries ? Kind of instead of a solar off grid house you would have a natural gas generated electricity and get rid of one power bill.
You can also convert your car to run off of natural gas and fill it up at your house. I'm sure all this could be done I'm not sure of costs. Haha they would probably have a law against you filling up your car at home to

[Dynamic]

NM

[flydude]

Steven.Guilbeault@parl.gc.ca

[Grizzly Adams1]

Originally Posted by Big Grey Wolf

Guys with All the wildfires in Canada and especially in Alberta we now have thousands of acres of dry fire killed wood. Thus by far best economics will be wood heating hands down.

Fire killed wood makes good lumber if harvested timely.

[Albertajeff]

Try plugging in 3 space heaters to offset your natural gas heating. It will be very clear on your electricity bill. And that’s 1200w each or less. Remember to plug each into separate circuit in your house, good possibility your breaker panel can’t handle two on one circuit.

[warriorboy10]

Guilbeault, Greenpeace activist as Canada's energy minister. What is more needed proof that the Libs are all about decimating this country! Turdo, pure stupidity!!