Semi auto shotguns

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I have to agree with all that.

Maybe I should explain my thinking.

I think it's a mistake to give new hunters the impression that one NEEDS a ultra magnum or a perfectly fitting shotgun to have any success in hunting.

Whether that impression is intentional or not I don't think matters.

There certainly is a place for flat shooting rifles and properly fitted shotguns.
But in my experience beginners seldom have the cash or the knowledge to achieve such ideals or even benefit from them.

When I answer a post I keep in mind what it was like for myself when I was learning to hunt and shoot and temper my answers accordingly.

I started out with no access to experts and only second hand firearms that would be inadequate in many peoples minds these days, but they did the job then and still can today.

There is nothing wrong with hunting with an ultra magnum, if that is what one likes, and for sure proper fit and patterning a shotgun can take ones shooting to the next level.

But first one has to learn to aim and to hunt.

I firmly believe it does the future of hunting a disservice to give anyone the impression that hunting or shooting is more complicated or more costly then it actually is.

The reality is, a hard kicking gun promotes poor shooting techniques in new hunters and the budget shotgun can bring down birds as surely as the best super magnum auto. They may not do it as good as the high priced hard kicking offerings, but they are easier to learn with and a whole lot easier on the budget.

If you were to reread my first post you may notice that my focus was on his reason for upgrading. In so doing I offered that if upgrading was his goal that was fine but if improving his hit average was the goal then upgrading may not be the best alternative.

Given the budget he suggested I guessed that he wasn't drowning in cash thus a lower priced gun might be a better option.

You answered my post by suggesting that my hunting partners were poor shots and of course that suggests that I am an even worse shot.

You followed that by saying this;
I think that leaves the wrong impression. As I said, in my experience improper lead is most often the reason beginners miss.

Therefor I think learning where to aim is more important then fit or pattern.
Once you have that figured out then it's time to look at getting a shotgun that fits well or have someone fit your gun for you.

But that's just my opinion gleaned from many years of trial and error.

Take it for what it is. Just my opinion.

Why would you even bring ultra magnum rifle cartridges into a shotgun discussion? The two are not at all related, so why the totally irrelevant rant? And cost is not a factor in choosing a shotgun that fits you better. A lower priced gun can actually fit better, I kept my $1000 SX-3, and sold my A400 and my SBE that cost twice as much, because the SX-3 fits me better, so I shoot it better. As for your partners shooting skills, if they are shooting semi autos, and are barely killing more birds than you are , and you are only getting off one shot per flock, then their shooting can't be that great. If you really want to see how good your shooting is, or isn't, count the fired hulls at the end of a hunt and compare that number to the number of dead birds on the ground. That will give you a good indication of your shooting. Most people are surprised, when they do this.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Why would you even bring ultra magnum rifle cartridges into a shotgun discussion? The two are not at all related, so why the totally irrelevant rant? And cost is not a factor in choosing a shotgun that fits you better. A lower priced gun can actually fit better, I kept my $1000 SX-3, and sold my A400 and my SBE that cost twice as much, because the SX-3 fits me better, so I shoot it better. As for your partners shooting skills, if they are shooting semi autos, and are barely killing more birds than you are , and you are only getting off one shot per flock, then their shooting can't be that great. If you really want to see how good your shooting is, or isn't, count the fired hulls at the end of a hunt and compare that number to the number of dead birds on the ground. That will give you a good indication of your shooting. Most people are surprised, when they do this.

Well I have to hand it to you, you are true to form.

I wonder though why you respond to someone you see as

totally irrelevant

No matter, you have your opinion, I have mine. I have no need nore desire to change yours.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

Well I have to hand it to you, you are true to form.

I wonder though why you respond to someone you see as

No matter, you have your opinion, I have mine. I have no need nore desire to change yours.

If pointing out that your rant about ultramag rifle cartridges is irrelevant on a thread about shotguns is being true to form , then I guess I am being true to form. And nobody even mentioned paying to have shotguns professionally fitted, except you. For some reason, your rambling went completely off the tracks in this thread.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If pointing out that your rant about ultramag rifle cartridges is irrelevant on a thread about shotguns is being true to form , then I guess I am being true to form. And nobody even mentioned paying to have shotguns professionally fitted, except you. For some reason, your rambling went completely off the tracks in this thread.

I'm not sure why I bother responding to you but here goes.

First the big magnums become relevant to the discussion in relation to giving beginners advice that could cost them dearly later on.

Of course I mentioned paying for having a professional fit ones shotgun should one choose to have it done.

Are you suggesting it can be done for free? If so, by who. Knowing that would be very helpful to most beginners.

So far I have tried to offer helpful advice, all you have done is suggest I am (A) a lousy shot and (B) have no idea what I am talking about. That I rant and that I ramble.

You even go so far as to state that my posts went completely off the track.

I have a hard time understanding why that is even allowed. To quote the rules;

Profanities, racism, flaming or other belittling remarks made toward other message board users will not be tolerated.

You are very good at skirting the rules by suggesting that the un-named individual you are addressing is a lousy shot, a fool, irrelevant ext.

Here's an idea, how about instead of tearing down other members how about offering some helpful information.

I still would like to know what you suggest one do to get their shotgun fit and patterned.
See I don't think you are irrelevant. I do however think you forgot what it was like to be new to shooting and on a limited budget.

I do think your advice is good advice for experienced shooters with deep pockets. But there are a lot of guys, myself included that simply don't fit in your class of shooters.

I don't belittle you for that and I thank you not to belittle me for my situation.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by KegRiver

I'm not sure why I bother responding to you but here goes.

First the big magnums become relevant to the discussion in relation to giving beginners advice that could cost them dearly later on.

Of course I mentioned paying for having a professional fit ones shotgun should one choose to have it done.

Are you suggesting it can be done for free? If so, by who. Knowing that would be very helpful to most beginners.

So far I have tried to offer helpful advice, all you have done is suggest I am (A) a lousy shot and (B) have no idea what I am talking about. That I rant and that I ramble.

You even go so far as to state that my posts went completely off the track.

I have a hard time understanding why that is even allowed. To quote the rules;
You are very good at skirting the rules by suggesting that the un-named individual you are addressing is a lousy shot, a fool, irrelevant ext.

Here's an idea, how about instead of tearing down other members how about offering some helpful information.

I still would like to know what you suggest one do to get their shotgun fit and patterned.
See I don't think you are irrelevant. I do however think you forgot what it was like to be new to shooting and on a limited budget.

I do think your advice is good advice for experienced shooters with deep pockets. But there are a lot of guys, myself included that simply don't fit in your class of shooters.

I don't belittle you for that and I thank you not to belittle me for my situation.

You keep missing the point that you don't have to have a shotgun fitted in order to have a shotgun that fits you fairly well . If you keep shotgun fit in mind when you are shopping for a shotgun, you can avoid buying a poorly fitting shotgun in the first place. And as I pointed out , the shotgun that fits you best is not determined by cost, there are likely shotguns that fit you fairly well in a wide variety of price ranges.
This is advice that isn't going to cost a person dearly, in fact it can save them a lot of money in the long run, because they won't end up with a poorly fitting shotgun that causes them frustration in the future, and will likely end up with them buying another shotgun as a result.
One of the guys that I shoot with started out with a $2000 Benelli, because he read reviews and wanted the best shotgun that he could afford. He thought that he was shooting as well as he could, and then he tried other people's shotguns, and found out that he shoots other shotguns better, because they fit him better. He now shoots an SX-4 that cost him less than half as much as his Benelli, and he shoots it better than his Benelli. He could have saved a lot of money if he had considered fit when he first went shotgun shopping. Another club member was a 60% shooter with the shotgun he had, because it fit him very poorly. After getting frustrated for several months, he tried other members shotguns, and found that he shot them much better. He then went out and bought a shotgun that fit him, and the first day he shot the new shotgun, he not only shot over 80%, but he shot his first clean round of skeet. In fact both of those shooters earned their 25 straight patches at skeet, and both are shooting much better at birds as well.
Whether you want to accept it or not, shotgun fit can instantly improve your wingshooting, and the best way to end up with a shotgun that fits, is to consider shotgun fit before you spend money buying a new shotgun. Like most people, I have never had a shotgun professional fitted, but all of my shotguns fit me quite well, because I consider shotgun fit before I buy a shotgun.
Although I have done some minor modifications myself on my clays guns, my hunting shotguns are exactly as they left the factory, because I chose guns that fitted me from the factory.
You can continue to try and attempt to make yourself appear to be a victim , and try and make it appear as though I am personally attacking you, but that does not change the fact that bringing ultra magnum rifle cartridges into this thread is not at all relevant to the topic. All that you are trying to do is to steer the conversation away from the topic of this thread , which is semi auto shotguns. And when it comes to semi auto shotguns, a properly fitted gun , is a good start towards improving your wing shooting. And as I have posted multiple times now, the best way to get a better fitting shotgun, is to consider shotgun fit when you are shopping for a shotgun, not after you have purchased a shotgun.

[sns2]

I have stayed out of this one, but not now. Calling your advice irrelevant is not belittling. You are both grown men.

1) He mentioned fit as being paramount. It is. He did not mention paying. You do not need to have any work done to get a shotgun that fits beyond doing a google search and watching a few videos, after which you walk into the gun store and shoulder the guns they have. Easy. Now that didn't cost anything. In fact, here are a load of videos that teach about proper fit that at one time would only have been possible by going to a trap/skeet club or a gunsmith specializing in shotguns.

https://www.google.com/search?q=how+...w=1093&bih=532

2) I have tried to understand your talk about ultra magnums, but correct me if I am wrong, "ultra-magnum" refers to a family of centerfire cartridges put out by Remington, of which many of us have had some. Where does "ultra magnum" enter the world of shotguns?

3) Your advice of a single shot or bolt action for practice to sharpen form may be okay, but only if that shotgun fits. There we go with that word again, but it is the most important word in the shotgunning vocabulary. Problem is the OP is asking advice on a semi-auto he wants to use for hunting. Further, why would anyone go to the considerable cost and trouble of outfitting themselves for goose hunting, and then handicap their ability to harvest birds with a bolt action or single shot? I learned with a single shot when I was 12 and then Dad bought me a Marlin Goose Gun bolt action with a 36" barrel. Bad mistake. Why? It didn't fit me as a 14 year old worth a tinker's damn. Worst thing you can do to discourage a new hunter is give them a gun that doesn't fit because it is much harder to hit birds.

Keg, relax man. This is the internet. Put Elk on ignore if he bothers you, but the advice he is giving is correct.

[catnthehat]

I think the ultra magnum was brought up in regards to an ill fitting rifle and the resulting recoil and inaccuracy result as would a 3.5" 12 gauge that does not fit
This thread had drifted way off course now!
Cat

[sns2]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

This thread had drifted way off course now!
Cat

What's new?

[KegRiver]

you walk into the gun store and shoulder the guns they have. Easy. Now that didn't cost anything.

Read the whole page, then ask yourself, how many inexperienced shooters have the skills to adjust; Length of pull, comb, and butt plate angle.

Of course there are some who have such skills but do you really think the majority can? Most don't even know what those terms mean.


https://www.shotgunlife.com/shotguns/guns/shotgun-fit-what-youre-missing.html

Your advice of a single shot or bolt action for practice to sharpen form may be okay, but only if that shotgun fits

From the above page;

That’s because shotguns are designed for a male right-handed shooter who is 5-foot-9, weighs 165 pounds, with a 33-inch arm length and wears a size 40-regular suit.

That tells me that for the average male most shotguns will fir fairly well.
Which is also what I have experienced.

So you are saying then that my advice may be okay for the average male.
Isn't that good advice then? If not, how so?

So help me understand this. Shotgun manufactures build guns that are fit for the average male, if so why would the average male need to know about fit? How does it become paramount?

Wouldn't learning proper lead be more important to that average male?

And why is suggesting I'm a lousy shot and that I ramble and rant okay?

Never mind, no point in answering. I get the picture.

See ya.

[elkhunter11]

That’s because shotguns are designed for a male right-handed shooter who is 5-foot-9, weighs 165 pounds, with a 33-inch arm length and wears a size 40-regular suit.

So how many shooters do you know that are actually 5'9" and that weigh 165lbs. Those are calculated numbers, and few people actually are that height and weight. And even if two people are the same height and weight, the differences in the length of their neck, and the shape of their faces, changes the optimum drop at comb for them, and drop at comb, is at least as important, if not more important than length of pull.
And if all of the manufacturers actually used the same model to fit their shotguns to, as your statement claims, all shotguns would fit the same, and they most certainly don't fit the same. On average, the Browning shotguns have much more drop at comb than the Beretta shotguns, those two manufacturers are pretty much opposites as far as fit is concerned.
The fact is, that each manufacturer has their own set of dimensions for their standard shotgun fit, and unless you match those dimensions, which many people don't, their shotgun will not fit you . That is why some people find that Brownings fit them better, and some find that Beretta fits them better.
So a shotgun buyer has two options, either shoulder an assortment of shotguns to see which ones fit them best, or ignore fit, and hope that the fit is at least close enough you to shoot it decently.
So if you are spending your money on a shotgun, and especially if you can't afford to buy another shotgun if the one you choose doesn't fit you, the smart thing to do is to shoulder some guns before spending your money, and choose one that actually fits you..

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

So how many shooters do you know that are actually 5'9" and that weigh 165lbs. Those are calculated numbers, and few people actually are that height and weight. And even if two people are the same height and weight, the differences in the length of their neck, and the shape of their faces, changes the optimum drop at comb for them, and drop at comb, is at least as important, if not more important than length of pull.
And if all of the manufacturers actually used the same model to fit their shotguns to, as your statement claims, all shotguns would fit the same, and they most certainly don't fit the same. On average, the Browning shotguns have much more drop at comb than the Beretta shotguns, those two manufacturers are pretty much opposites as far as fit is concerned.
The fact is, that each manufacturer has their own set of dimensions for their standard shotgun fit, and unless you match those dimensions, which many people don't, their shotgun will not fit you . That is why some people find that Brownings fit them better, and some find that Beretta fits them better.
So a shotgun buyer has two options, either shoulder an assortment of shotguns to see which ones fit them best, or ignore fit, and hope that the fit is at least close enough you to shoot it decently.
So if you are spending your money on a shotgun, and especially if you can't afford to buy another shotgun if the one you choose doesn't fit you, the smart thing to do is to shoulder some guns before spending your money, and choose one that actually fits you..

I see you did some research. Good on you but you still don't get it, even though you allude to some of the issues with your theory.


Fitting a shotgun to a shooter is much more then just shouldering a number of guns.

Yes the length of the shooters neck makes a difference, you should have researched why. Maybe then you'd start to understand why shouldering a gun would tell an inexperienced hunter very little about fit.

I've been avoiding getting into the mechanics of fitting a shotgun to a shooter because it is far to complicated to properly explain on an internet forum.

But maybe if I explain a bit maybe the people who will benefit from understanding some of the issues will understand why fit is not something a novice could determine much less adjust for.

No need to read the rest of this elk, you clearly are wasting your time with me.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------


The reason neck length matters is because it in part determines the position of the eye above the bore.
You see proper fit is about more then just feeling right. It is also about postponing the eye as close as possible to a position just above and in line with the bore of the shotgun.

The stock should line your eye up for you, similar to the way a rear sight lines your eye up with the bore of a rifle.

That's a very simplistic explanation of one aspect of fitting a shotgun to shooter.

And that is why fitting is not something the average shooter can do.

Yes fit matters, in fact that is why shotgun manufactures design their shotguns to fit the average man. But it's also a compromise. It would be impractical to try to produce a shotgun for every shooter.

Fortunately for most shooters it's close enough to work in most hunting situations.

Many manufacturers go one step further and produce a shotgun with a fully adjustable stock. That puts fitting within the reach for average shooters.
But such stocks are expensive.

That in itself is proof of what I say. If it were a simple matter of shouldering a few guns, manufacturers would not be producing adjustable stocks.

Now I fully expect to get roasted once again for posting this.
So I'll drop out and let the arrows fly where they may.

I am content that I at least tried to provide helpful information.
I know the silent majority appreciates that and I trust that those of you who do, will do the research and learn just what fitting is really about.

[elkhunter11]

I see you did some research. Good on you but you still don't get it, even though you allude to some of the issues with your theory.

Actually, I didn't have to do any research lately, I learned about shotgun fit over 30 years ago when I started shooting competitively. And I do get it, whereas you mentioning only height and weight and arm length which are primarily factors in length of pull, while ignoring the factors such as face shape and neck length, which have the greatest effect drop at comb, make me suspect that most of your research on the topic only took place in the last day or so.

Originally Posted by KegRiver

You see proper fit is about more then just feeling right. It is also about postponing the eye as close as possible to a position just above and in line with the bore of the shotgun.

I have never posted that gun fit is about the gun feeling right, the most important factor in hitting the target, is that the shotgun naturally points where your eye is looking. If you simply close your eyes, and naturally shoulder a shotgun, and without moving, open your eyes, you will immediately see if the gun is pointing where your dominant eye is looking. If the rib is not centered left to right the cast is wrong, if you are looking down at the top of the rib, instead of along the rib, there isn't enough drop at comb, if you can't see the entire front bead, then there is too much drop at comb. If any of these conditions exist, the gun isn't pointing where you are looking, and you won't shoot it as well as a gun that is pointing where you are looking. This method can't guarantee that the fit is perfect for you, and that the gun will be as comfortable as it should be when you shoot it, but if the gun is pointing where you are looking, you will at least hit the target. If the gun isn't pointing where you are looking, no matter how comfortable it feels, you won't hit the target as easy as you should.

Yes fit matters, in fact that is why shotgun manufactures design their shotguns to fit the average man. But it's also a compromise. It would be impractical to try to produce a shotgun for every shooter.

But since the various manufacturers do build their stocks to different dimensions, shouldering various shotguns from different manufacturers can help you to find a shotgun that points where you are looking when you shoulder it. And even if you don't find one that is pointing exactly where you are looking, the odds are much better than just randomly picking a shotgun off of the rack.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

I have never posted that gun fit is about the gun feeling right,

Correct, you also never said anything about fit having anything to do with how it relates to where the shotgun points, until I did.
Which leads me to believe you did your research in the past hour.

Here is what you did say;

you can simply shoulder a variety of shotguns , and see which shotguns fit you best.

You also said this;

I learned about shotgun fit over 30 years ago when I started shooting competitively.

So you think the average shooter is a competition shooter?

No of course you don't. But you seem to think the novice shooter would know stuff you didn't learn about UNTIL you started shooting competitively!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mr. you have zero credibility. You spout off about fit as if it's common knowledge and then admit you didn't learn about it until you entered competitive shooting.

Well I've got news for you. The average wing hunter IS NOT A COMPETITIVE SHOOTER.

You flat out state that my advice is irreverent but your advice is far worse then irreverent. It's harmful!

You give beginners the impression that simply shouldering a gun is what fit is all about.
That sets them up for failure.

You called me a fool, well sir I would get banned if I said what I think of you.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

whereas you mentioning only height and weight and arm length which are primarily factors in length of pull, while ignoring the factors such as face shape and neck length

make me suspect that most of your research on the topic only took place in the last day or so.

You really have no idea what I wrote do you. Go ahead see if you can quote where I said that.
You won't find it cause I didn't say it. In fact the only one to say anything like that was you, and then only after I brought up the fact that fit was about more then just shouldering a shotgun.

Which is all you had said about fit up to that point.

I'll be honest with you. I do think you know what fit is about. I even suspect you know more then I do about fit.

But I also think you are so full of yourself you think everyone else is an idiot.

It's too bad really, because if you had asked me to clarify my stand right at the beginning instead of setting out to tear me down this could have been a very helpful thread instead of the train wreck YOU made it become.

Yes I had a part in that, I could have walked away right at the beginning and in fact I tried to twice, but you kept snipping at me.

Since I knew you were giving some the wrong idea about what fit is all about, I felt compelled to try to defend my position.

I guess I should have just walked away and let you mess up other hunters idea of what fit is.

Time to close this train wreck. Not for me, I'm so disgusted I can hardly type. It needs to be closed because it is worthless now.

[elkhunter11]

It doesn't matter whether you shoot clays or birds, the principles are all the same, and fit is important for either. I didn't understand shotgun fit when I was given a shotgun to shoot at eight years old, I just shot the little 410 that was handed to me to shoot. But when I was taught about fit, and I saw how important it was, I thought that I would try and help other people to at least understand how important it was to have a shotgun that points where the shooter is looking. That is why I mention shotgun fit whenever someone is shopping for a shotgun, rather than do as some people do, which is to ignore shotgun fit, and even downplay the importance of fit when it is ,mentioned. Helping other people to at least understand the very basics of shotgun fit helps other shooters to improve their odds of purchasing a shotgun that will make it much easier to shoot to their potential . Personally, I would rather try and help help other shooters, rather than hinder them by not mentioning shotgun fit at all, or worse yet downplay the importance of shotgun fit.
When a new clays shooter comes out, I try to help them to improve their shooting, and I enjoy handing them their 25 straight patch. When I take a person pheasant hunting, I don't shoot until after they shoot, because I want them to shoot the bird. When in a goose blind, I call the youth shooter or new shooter onto birds first, because I want them to see the bird fall, knowing that they shot it. There are times that birds come in that I don't shoot at all, because I am trying to help another shooter to improve their shooting.

[KegRiver]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

It doesn't matter whether you shoot clays or birds, the principles are all the same, and fit is important for either. I didn't understand shotgun fit when I was given a shotgun to shoot at eight years old, I just shot the little 410 that was handed to me to shoot. But when I was taught about fit, and I saw how important it was, I thought that I would try and help other people to at least understand how important it was to have a shotgun that points where the shooter is looking. That is why I mention shotgun fit whenever someone is shopping for a shotgun, rather than do as some people do, which is to ignore shotgun fit, and even downplay the importance of fit when it is ,mentioned. Helping other people to at least understand the very basics of shotgun fit helps other shooters to improve their odds of purchasing a shotgun that will make it much easier to shoot to their potential . Personally, I would rather try and help help other shooters, rather than hinder them by not mentioning shotgun fit at all, or worse yet downplay the importance of shotgun fit.
When a new clays shooter comes out, I try to help them to improve their shooting, and I enjoy handing them their 25 straight patch. When I take a person pheasant hunting, I don't shoot until after they shoot, because I want them to shoot the bird. When in a goose blind, I call the youth shooter or new shooter onto birds first, because I want them to see the bird fall, knowing that they shot it. There are times that birds come in that I don't shoot at all, because I am trying to help another shooter to improve their shooting.

So that's it is it?

I'm the bad guy because I didn't mention fit in my first post.

Sorry I don't live up to your standards.

But while you are patting yourself on the back for being so helpful you might ask yourself how saying just shoulder a few guns enlightens new shooters about the importance of fit.

Oh and by the way, I strongly disagree with your assertion that knowing about fit is paramount for new shooters.

It seems to me that if it were as important as you claim it would be a common subject among shooting supply outlets and hunting magazines.

I don't see that at all. If it's there I sure missed it and I'd bet most average hunters have too.

[darren32]

So the verdict is .. shotgun fit matters??
WOW

[Dick284]

I’m certainly glad I could spend the weekend shooting birds with the OP.
He got to handle everyone’s shotguns, and hopefully it helped him make his decision easier.

BTW: he did very well on birds with his current shotgun.