6.5 Shootout Comparison, How would you score it?

[Stinky Coyote]

Since the 6.5 thing has been a hot topic lately. I thought this was an interesting read. We each have our own ideas on this i'm sure. I'm shocked the swede ranked last...the 6.5 that kept the 6.5 thing alive, hmmm

I do like the comparison data however for big picture viewing but my opinions would be quite a bit different. How would you rank?

https://skyaboveus.com/hunting-shoot...-Which-is-Best

I think i'd go more like:

1. 6.5 CM
2. Swede
3. 6.5 Grendel
4. .260 Rem
5. 6.5-284
6. .264 WM
7. .26 nosler/6.5-300 WBY
8. .26 nosler/6.5-300 WBY

I'll concede the .260 Rem could be above the Grendel but Grendel i'd choose before i started into the big powder burners...just based on overall versatility. I'm definitely biased to the non-magnum side of things.

Some additional thoughts after processing a bit more. Definitely find the ranges recommended on the conservative side across the board but still fine for comparison. Looks like the swede numbers on the saami side rather than modern pressures most likely doing now so it would likely be a bit stronger than the Creedmoor but i get it for comparison fairness. Personally would be looking for recoil under 15 ft/lbs so the 6.5-284 would be my upper limit in selection. I easily have the 6.5 CM as the modern take on the swede and the most versatile choice in the group.

[elkhunter11]

If they had used modern loads for modern rifles, the 6.x55 would do much better.
My person ranking would be

6.5x55 my favorite combination of ballistics vs recoil

6.5x284 better ballistics, but a bit more recoil

260rem slightly inferior ballistics but less recoil

I wouldn't bother with the rest at all.

[1Heavyhitr]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If they had used modern loads for modern rifles, the 6.x55 would do much better.
My person ranking would be

6.5x55 my favorite combination of ballistics vs recoil

6.5x284 better ballistics, but a bit more recoil

260rem slightly inferior ballistics but less recoil

I wouldn't bother with the rest at all.

x2

ps.

Have to tip my hat to Cat For turning me onto the Swede and making me look like I was ahead of the game lol

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If they had used modern loads for modern rifles, the 6.x55 would do much better.
My person ranking would be

6.5x55 my favorite combination of ballistics vs recoil

6.5x284 better ballistics, but a bit more recoil

260rem slightly inferior ballistics but less recoil

I wouldn't bother with the rest at all.

X3

The modern Swede is a much better hunting cartridge than the CM and every bit the equal or better at LR targets. Recoil is not even a valid consideration for most 6.5 shooters.

[Stinky Coyote]

so clearly 3 reloaders above and not afraid to rebarrel or go custom rifle too...

what would your list look like if factory considerations on rifles/ammo/saami spec look like?

ie; the list of order for the masses or confined too, or wanting, nothing custom? i agree the choices to go both ways are fantastic

lets see two lists then?

[lclund1946]

The author used velocities listed by manufacturers on their websites so the 6.5x55 would be at a disadvantage but I believe that the 6.5 Creedmore has a bit more case capacity under the bullet so I doubt that the Swede would best it given equal pressures. Hornady advertised 3100/3150 f/s for the 143 ELDX in the 6.6 PRC which I feel may be a bit optimistic. However people are reporting very near the 2960 fps that Hornady are advertising their factory ammo with this bullet in the PRC. That gives an MPBR of 301 yards (256 yard zero). Minimum expansion velocity: 870 yards. Medium Game: 745 yards. Large Game: 560 yards. Recoil Energy: 17.59 ft. lbs.. This actually puts the 6.5 PRC ahead of the 264 Win mag in all respects and would my #1 pick. It actually comes out ahead of the 6.5 EXTREME, that I designed about 10 years ago On the 300 RCM case, if I stick to my design parameter which is pressures low enough to cause minimal case stretch. I can actually use the Hornady 6.5 PRC Match bushing die as a shoulder bump die.

Here are the results of my latest range outings where I found RL 33 to be the best powder followed by Norma 217. I did find it interesting that the very minimal change from New brass to FL sized brass resulted in a velocity drop of about 60 fps. There was no difference in velocity between the bushing bumped/FL sixed brass but the FL brass gave the best group and single digit SD. Will see how it performs at longer ranges next.
[IMG][/IMG]

[Stinky Coyote]

Awesome additional info there! Agree with you, punches way above it's weight for recoil energy/powder burned.

I'm betting the article was written before the 6.5 PRC release though. Must have been as the Creedmoor and Grendel were there. Two others that punch way above their weight in terms of recoil energy/powder burned.

Right on.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

so clearly 3 reloaders above and not afraid to rebarrel or go custom rifle too...

what would your list look like if factory considerations on rifles/ammo/saami spec look like?

ie; the list of order for the masses or confined too, or wanting, nothing custom? i agree the choices to go both ways are fantastic

lets see two lists then?

My two 6.5x55 rifles were factory rifles, a Sako Bavarian Carbine, and a T-3 Varmint. The T-3 consistently put five rounds in 1/2moa, and the Sako averaged around 5/8" at 100 yards for three shots. I used handloads using R-22 for both rifles. My 260rem was a factory Cooper, and it would easily put five rounds in 1/2moa using my handloads. I don't shoot factory ammunition in any of my centerfire rifles.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

The author used velocities listed by manufacturers on their websites so the 6.5x55 would be at a disadvantage but I believe that the 6.5 Creedmore has a bit more case capacity under the bullet so I doubt that the Swede would best it given equal pressures. Hornady advertised 3100/3150 f/s for the 143 ELDX in the 6.6 PRC which I feel may be a bit optimistic. However people are reporting very near the 2960 fps that Hornady are advertising their factory ammo with this bullet in the PRC. That gives an MPBR of 301 yards (256 yard zero). Minimum expansion velocity: 870 yards. Medium Game: 745 yards. Large Game: 560 yards. Recoil Energy: 17.59 ft. lbs.. This actually puts the 6.5 PRC ahead of the 264 Win mag in all respects and would my #1 pick. It actually comes out ahead of the 6.5 EXTREME, that I designed about 10 years ago On the 300 RCM case, if I stick to my design parameter which is pressures low enough to cause minimal case stretch. I can actually use the Hornady 6.5 PRC Match bushing die as a shoulder bump die.

Here are the results of my latest range outings where I found RL 33 to be the best powder followed by Norma 217. I did find it interesting that the very minimal change from New brass to FL sized brass resulted in a velocity drop of about 60 fps. There was no difference in velocity between the bushing bumped/FL sixed brass but the FL brass gave the best group and single digit SD. Will see how it performs at longer ranges next.
[IMG][/IMG]

Perhaps check your 6.5 case capacities again if that is what you believe.

The 6.5 Swede has close to 5 grs more capacity than the CM. As I said in a previous post a while back, there is no way the CM can run with a modern Swede and I'll say it again .. no way.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Perhaps check your 6.5 case capacities again if that is what you believe.

The 6.5 Swede has close to 5 grs more capacity than the CM. As I said in a previous post a while back, there is no way the CM can run with a modern Swede and I'll say it again .. no way.

Come on now, stop with the logic based on case capacity, the Creedmoor produces magic ballistics, when fed ammunition loaded with pixie dust and unicorn farts.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Come on now, stop with the logic based on case capacity, the Creedmoor produces magic ballistics, when fed ammunition loaded with pixie dust and unicorn farts.

Now, ain't that the truth. ! How can some guys try and pull that off ?..
especially guys that should know better.

[huntingfamily]

Originally Posted by Salavee

X3

The modern Swede is a much better hunting cartridge than the CM and every bit the equal or better at LR targets. Recoil is not even a valid consideration for most 6.5 shooters.

X4!

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by Salavee

Perhaps check your 6.5 case capacities again if that is what you believe.

The 6.5 Swede has close to 5 grs more capacity than the CM. As I said in a previous post a while back, there is no way the CM can run with a modern Swede and I'll say it again .. no way.

Saami/Ansi drawings show close to 5 grains more under a 140 VLD in the CM than the Swede. I believe that the seating depth is correct for the CM but not sure with the Swede. If you would give me the actual H20 capacity of one of your 6.5 Sweed cases and the seating depth with a 140 VLD seated and someone do the same for a 6.5 Cm case we could come up some actual figures.

[IMG][/IMG]

[SakoShooter]

Easily 6.5x55 for cool factor and even performance if you handload.

6.5 creedmoor is one of the best out there for a new shooter, mild recoil and effective on game to reasonable ranges, ammo likely to be available everywhere for the foreseeable future.

In my opinion, the 6.5 creed has supplanted the 7mm-08 as the ultimate begginners hunting rifle.

I don't personally like the .243 for beginners as I think it's effectiveness on game is a step below the 6.5 and 7mm-08

6.5 swede is a classic though, and really has the "cool factor" over all others.

The .260 rem is every bit as good as the creed in the real world...even fits the same actions, but lost the marketing battle.

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

so clearly 3 reloaders above and not afraid to rebarrel or go custom rifle too...

what would your list look like if factory considerations on rifles/ammo/saami spec look like?

ie; the list of order for the masses or confined too, or wanting, nothing custom? i agree the choices to go both ways are fantastic

lets see two lists then?

If this thread is about the better 6.5 cartridge, the CM won't rate very high. If it is about things not directly related to the 6.5 cartridge itself then it has some appeal. Available ammo, short action compatibility and a bit less recoil are outside the relm of a fair 6.5 cartridge comparison but they do draw those who are attracted to those peripheral needs. That is the market the CM was created for. It is a great cartridge for that particular market but that's about where it ends.

[huntingfamily]

Default case capacity (grains H2O) from QL:

6.5 grendel 37.5
6.5 cm 53.5
260 rem 53.5
6.5x55 57.0
6.5x284 66.0
6.5 rem mag 68.0
6.5x300 weatherby 98.0
26 nosler 99.0

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by lclund1946

Saami/Ansi drawings show close to 5 grains more under a 140 VLD in the CM than the Swede. I believe that the seating depth is correct for the CM but not sure with the Swede. If you would give me the actual H20 capacity of one of your 6.5 Sweed cases and the seating depth with a 140 VLD seated and someone do the same for a 6.5 Cm case we could come up some actual figures.

[IMG][/IMG]

Oh interesting? Even i figured the swede would be burning more powder with same bullets seated to correct length. Looking foward to seeing the final answer here! maybe i'm correct in calling the creedmoor the modern equivalent of the swede closer in performance than i suspected?

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by huntingfamily

Default case capacity (grains H2O) from QL:

6.5 grendel 37.5
6.5 cm 53.5
260 rem 53.5
6.5x55 57.0
6.5x284 66.0
6.5 rem mag 68.0
6.5x300 weatherby 98.0
26 nosler 99.0

Got lots of 6.5 data in this thread now with recoil energies, case and powder capacities to throw a hellluva spreadsheet together. Thanks, good info.

[Pathfinder76]

Well, I’ve shot and used the Swede, the 260, and the 6.5 CM. I know which I would choose.

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by Salavee

If this thread is about the better 6.5 cartridge, the CM won't rate very high. If it is about things not directly related to the 6.5 cartridge itself then it has some appeal. Available ammo, short action compatibility and a bit less recoil are outside the relm of a fair 6.5 cartridge comparison but they do draw those who are attracted to those peripheral needs. That is the market the CM was created for. It is a great cartridge for that particular market but that's about where it ends.

The Swede is the best but the creed is way down the list.....

The 6.5 Creedmoor was designed from the group up to be efficient, I really wish you'd do a little research, you'd get a little meat behind your arguement, but then again you'd find out you've been wrong the whole time. Maybe best to remain naive.

[huntingfamily]

From QuickLoad:
140 Berger VLD bullet - Usable case capacity ( grains H2O with bullet seated to std cartridge OAL)

6.5 cm 47.07 grs H2O COAL 2.800"
6.5x55 52.01 grs H2O COAL 3.150"

[Stinky Coyote]

Originally Posted by Salavee

If this thread is about the better 6.5 cartridge, the CM won't rate very high. If it is about things not directly related to the 6.5 cartridge itself then it has some appeal. Available ammo, short action compatibility and a bit less recoil are outside the relm of a fair 6.5 cartridge comparison but they do draw those who are attracted to those peripheral needs. That is the market the CM was created for. It is a great cartridge for that particular market but that's about where it ends.

Agree, many of these will do everything the other will in terms of velocity/bullet weight. You got one at the low end of spectrum. 3 of them could cross shop on the standard end and a standard/magnum crossover in the 6.5-284 then a few more on the magnum end.

So it's not hard to look at just the straight math of powder vs bullet and break them down that way. All the other variables come at different importance levels to many of us. Some non-reloaders, some are, some recoil sensitive some aren't, some hike big hills or just want as light as possible. Some wanna shoot much further than others, some may be into auto-loaders and bolt actions or one or the other. The list goes on and on.

On the low end the Grendel stands alone.
On the standard end the 6.5 CM is most versatile.
On the magnum end the 6.5 PRC will shortly be the most versatile and many recognizing early that is likely.

I'm not being biased here, it's not just a koolaid thing. Due to these cartridges being designed from the ground up to hit a lot more shopping parameters than the older cartridges that is why i'm a fan and have no problem seeing them as more versatile. From fitting standard length actions/magazines bolt action/semi-auto, to sub moa, high bc, fast twist for long range capability...these new cartridges are offering the most versatility for the powder they burn. That's my attraction to them, the ultimate in efficiency and due to getting so much right they will be around for maybe even longer than any previous military/hunting combined favorites?

The .223 and .308 will die by the 6.5 Grendel and the 6.5 Creedmoor...mark my words.

For hunting only oriented crowds any of it will do fine but i have a feeling that PRC is going to drown out a lot of noise above 15 ft/lbs recoil energy. The PRC may put final nails in coffins on the wsm's and rsaums too.

[6.5 shooter]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

If they had used modern loads for modern rifles, the 6.x55 would do much better.
My person ranking would be

6.5x55 my favorite combination of ballistics vs recoil

6.5x284 better ballistics, but a bit more recoil

260rem slightly inferior ballistics but less recoil

I wouldn't bother with the rest at all.

I agree. The mistake they made with the .260 is the stubby little neck, IF they had used the .243 case neck length on the .260 the other "wonder" cartridges would be flash in the pan here today gone tomorrow. The swede has been around for a long time and loaded to modern pressures in a modern rifle will be here long after we are gone.

[Pathfinder76]

Originally Posted by 6.5 shooter

I agree. The mistake they made with the .260 is the stubby little neck, IF they had used the .243 case neck length on the .260 the other "wonder" cartridges would be flash in the pan here today gone tomorrow. The swede has been around for a long time and loaded to modern pressures in a modern rifle will be here long after we are gone.

They remedied that when they designed the 6.5 Creedmoor. Laughing.

[catnthehat]

I have used almost all the cartridges on the list and many more 6.5's that are not, to kill animals and for competition rifles.
For me it really comes down to a minimal number of things , the LEAST of which is " cartridge A is better than cartridge B" because I think most of that is a big pile of dung once the cartridge is loaded and the shooter takes control.
The rifle itself has far more to do with my choice of 6.5 cartridge than anything else, my favorite at this time being the 1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer in 6.5X54 MS which is not even on the list.
I's small, it's slow compared to others, and it kills very cleanly.

In a bolt action the case length might matter, as in a magazine bolt action, but the majority of my rifles have been falling block single shots.
The latest one I am putting together right now however is a re-barreled match rifle in 6.5 Creedmore.
Why?
Two reason, the first being the action length - it's a short action that i have .
The second being that I have components locally available to me off the shelf including dies .
The third being that I don't handle lot of recoil anymore.

The fourth is that all the velocity, case capacity, and accuracy claims are a moot point for me because I can adjust my sights for trajectory/velocity, accuracy depends more on a quality barrel and bullet than the case, and case capacity means squat to me in the big scheme of things.
HOWEVER, the biggest reason?
I haven't owned one yet!
Cat

[Kurt505]

Originally Posted by catnthehat

I have used almost all the cartridges on the list and many more 6.5's that are not, to kill animals and for competition rifles.
For me it really comes down to a minimal number of things , the LEAST of which is " cartridge A is better than cartridge B" because I think most of that is a big pile of dung once the cartridge is loaded and the shooter takes control.
The rifle itself has far more to do with my choice of 6.5 cartridge than anything else, my favorite at this time being the 1903 Mannlicher Schoenauer in 6.5X54 MS which is not even on the list.
I's small, it's slow compared to others, and it kills very cleanly.

In a bolt action the case length might matter, as in a magazine bolt action, but the majority of my rifles have been falling block single shots.
The latest one I am putting together right now however is a re-barreled match rifle in 6.5 Creedmore.
Why?
Two reason, the first being the action length - it's a short action that i have .
The second being that I have components locally available to me off the shelf including dies .
The third being that I don't handle lot of recoil anymore.

The fourth is that all the velocity, case capacity, and accuracy claims are a moot point for me because I can adjust my sights for trajectory/velocity, accuracy depends more on a quality barrel and bullet than the case, and case capacity means squat to me in the big scheme of things.
HOWEVER, the biggest reason?
I haven't owned one yet!
Cat

I was hoping you were going to save the news for just a bit longer!


Hahaha!!!

[Salavee]

Originally Posted by Stinky Coyote

Agree, many of these will do everything the other will in terms of velocity/bullet weight. You got one at the low end of spectrum. 3 of them could cross shop on the standard end and a standard/magnum crossover in the 6.5-284 then a few more on the magnum end.

So it's not hard to look at just the straight math of powder vs bullet and break them down that way. All the other variables come at different importance levels to many of us. Some non-reloaders, some are, some recoil sensitive some aren't, some hike big hills or just want as light as possible. Some wanna shoot much further than others, some may be into auto-loaders and bolt actions or one or the other. The list goes on and on.

On the low end the Grendel stands alone.
On the standard end the 6.5 CM is most versatile.
On the magnum end the 6.5 PRC will shortly be the most versatile and many recognizing early that is likely.

I'm not being biased here, it's not just a koolaid thing. Due to these cartridges being designed from the ground up to hit a lot more shopping parameters than the older cartridges that is why i'm a fan and have no problem seeing them as more versatile. From fitting standard length actions/magazines bolt action/semi-auto, to sub moa, high bc, fast twist for long range capability...these new cartridges are offering the most versatility for the powder they burn. That's my attraction to them, the ultimate in efficiency and due to getting so much right they will be around for maybe even longer than any previous military/hunting combined favorites?

The .223 and .308 will die by the 6.5 Grendel and the 6.5 Creedmoor...mark my words.

For hunting only oriented crowds any of it will do fine but i have a feeling that PRC is going to drown out a lot of noise above 15 ft/lbs recoil energy. The PRC may put final nails in coffins on the wsm's and rsaums too.

That's all good ... but as to versatility, if the CM could handle a 160 gr. it might have a chance. As to the .223 and 308W dying at the hands of a .264 Grendel, I really don't think so. Totally different leagues. How did you come up with that prediction ?
The jury hasn't been formed yet on the PRC. It sounds good and likely will be , but ... I hope it stays under your self imposed 15 ft/lbs recoil max.
As for me, I'll take a few more grains of powder if it helps deliver the freight more effectively.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Kurt505

I was hoping you were going to save the news for just a bit longer!


Hahaha!!!

I'll keep quiet now until the first "shots fired" video comes out!

Cat

[lclund1946]

Originally Posted by huntingfamily

From QuickLoad:
140 Berger VLD bullet - Usable case capacity ( grains H2O with bullet seated to std cartridge OAL)

6.5 cm 47.07 grs H2O COAL 2.800"
6.5x55 52.01 grs H2O COAL 3.150"

My design program shows the 6.5 CM Having 47.0 grs H20 with 140 VLD seated to 2.800 OAL and 47.9 grains seated 0.015" off the lands so that is pretty close. I measured a 6.5 x55 case and found that it held 57.0 grains of H20 so my program was out to lunch on this one. I have it holding about 51.0 grains with the 140 VLD drawn at 3.11" so 52.01 would be very close with COAL 3.15". I would be curious to know how far off the lands the 140 VLD would be in the 6.5x55 seated to Saami Max Magazine Length. Also a comparison of the 2 cartridges with RL 26 in the CM and whatever works best in the 6.5x55. People are making some very interesting claims with RL 26 at around 45-47 grains in the CM. Perhaps someone has some actual data to share?

[Norwest Alta]

Originally Posted by elkhunter11

Come on now, stop with the logic based on case capacity, the Creedmoor produces magic ballistics, when fed ammunition loaded with pixie dust and unicorn farts.

Don't forget how much freezer space is needed if a guy owns a creedmore.