How has cleaning your rifle affected the size of its groupings

[sure as shootin']

I've been doing a lot of shooting this summer up in my backyard range at our cabin with surplus ammo. Sometimes I clean my rifle right after the outing (1 box of ammo),,,,but usually after a couple of weekends (2-3 boxes).

While I was shooting yesterday morning I was pretty shocked that I was getting MOA at 100 yds. when shooting from a bench rest. Needless to say, it's far from quality ammo. I had now run at leat 4 boxes through it so when I got home I cleaned the rifle with Wipeout.

So today when I went out my first three shot grouping was at least 4-5 inches at the same distance! I couldn't believe the difference shooting from a clean rifle made and was wondering if I should have left well enough alone? I should mention that I've been using Wipeout for some time now with this firearm and have not had anything but carbon fouling, no copper fouling has been present from this South African ammo I've been using even thogh the casing are made from brass.

I noticed this change in accuracy with another firearm I was using last year after cleaning it with Wipout,,,,, but this rifle did have a lot of copper fouling. It took at least a dozen shots down the pipe before some copper eqilibrium took place to make the groupings smaller. Each grouping got noticably smaller which kind of happened today before I stopped shooting because the wind was really starting to blow,,,,12 shots later to be exact​.

I know some guys who don't even bother cleaning their rifles until they see accuracy falling off. Just wondering if I should do the same? Have you guys noticed the same thing in terms of accuracy after cleaning your firearm or does it shoot straighter?

[Dick284]

Every rifle is different.
Some rifles prefer clean, other prefer mild fouling.

Time spent shooting and observing, the particular rifles, behaviour, will tell you what it likes.

[HowSwedeItIs]

Have you checked the condition of the bore on the second rifle? I wouldn't think that the copper fouling would make a drastic difference like that if it wasn't pitted somehow

[Salavee]

As Dick said, all rifles are different. Most of mine like 2 - 5 rnds thru them before they tighten up. Interestingly, I have two barrels from the same maker with the same chambers cut from the same reamer. Their fouling requirements are identical ... about three fouling shots. Another rifle in a different chambering, but the same barrel maker only needs one shot.
FWIW, I always hunt with a fouled barrel.as the first shot from a cold barrel is usually pretty close to dead on. Clean & cold .. not so close.

I use WipeOut as well, but it doesn't do carbon very well so watch for carbon build-up. Have fun !

[sure as shootin']

Originally Posted by HowSwedeItIs

Have you checked the condition of the bore on the second rifle? I wouldn't think that the copper fouling would make a drastic difference like that if it wasn't pitted somehow

The bore of the rifle is in very good condition even though the rifle is over thirty years old,,,,no pitting at all. In fact, the ability of this Remmington 700 BDL .270 exceeds my ability although I have gotten a couple of cloverleafs with it in the past shooting lower quality ammo like Federal BB. However, when I removed all the copper fouling from it with Wipeout the difference in accuracy with the same ammo was night and day.

The absence of copper fouling does make a difference to POI with some firearms. I've read several articles from various gun smiths that rifles need what's known as copper equilibrium in order to shoot at their best. If you remove all the copper fouling in a barrel chances are your groups will open up until you lay some copper down by shooting SEVERAL rounds down the pipe.

That's why I was wondering how cleaning the rifle affects your particular rifle in terms of accuracy. So far, I've noticed with the two guns I shoot, I'm pretty sure that it does.

[sure as shootin']

Originally Posted by Salavee

I use WipeOut as well, but it doesn't do carbon very well so watch for carbon build-up. Have fun !

Carbon is all that is coming out of this gun while I've been using this South African surplus ammo. I'm surprised that I'm not seeing any blue (evidence of copper) at all! I haven't a clue why? Definitely noticed it the first time I used Wipeout on my older Remmington 700.

[HowSwedeItIs]

Huh, that's pretty interesting, I could never be sure my groups were getting smaller the dirtier the bore got. Tried to keep the copper from building up too bad. Glad you could find out how to boost your accuracy!

[Hotwheels81]

I've noticed this with several rifles, a friend has an SVT-40 that takes a good 60 rounds to foul up the bore and gas system to get it shooting consistently... A Norc M305 I had took a good 10-15.... Barrels have personality and so do gas systems in semi autos... You just need to get to know em.

Now is the time of the year when you will see people make the classic hunting ritual mistake...

They show up at the range with a squeaky clean rifle and proceed to lob a few down range to 100 yards or so, once happy with there group they whip out the old aluminum multi piece rod and bottle of hoppes #9 and scrub the heck outta the barrel with a bronze brush and follow it up with a couple patches and patiently wait for opening day so they can shoot towards the general direction of something....

I've seen an older gentleman who dry patched cobwebs out of the barrel of a rusty old 30-30... Hasent cleaned it since before I was born... Takes his moose every fall with it... Puts an oiled patch thru it at the end of the season... Said he's never botherd to clean it as it still hits what it's pointed at...


I've got a new savage 116 aught-6 that I could scrub the rifling out of before I found the end of the copper in it's bore, I tried the whole shoot one and clean routine with it the first time I went to the range.... Darn near wore out a Dewey rod...
I've used brushes and wipeout till my wrist was sore and after 3 shots at the range I had to repeat the process again... Now I just shoot the damn thing because I honestly can't tell any diffrence between it being clean or dirty... At 60 rounds down the pipe it's still getting 1.25" 3 shot groups with factory federal 180's... Maybe I'll clean it before the season opens up.

[sure as shootin']

Originally Posted by HowSwedeItIs

Huh, that's pretty interesting, I could never be sure my groups were getting smaller the dirtier the bore got. Tried to keep the copper from building up too bad. Glad you could find out how to boost your accuracy!

From what I've read achieving copper equilibrium in your rifle barrel is super important when it comes to POI but as others have mentioned some guns have excellent accuracy after taking just one fouling shot to rid the gun of any cleaning/maintenance products (ie. gun oil) whereas others may take up to a box. It appears that my .308 has better accuracy with at least that or more through the pipe,,,,at least with this cheapo surplus ammo.

The thing is,,,, I don't know how many rounds I can actually send down the pipe before accuracy starts to go south. I have heard that some guys who own .308's can shoot between 500-1000 rounds before that happens.

Sounds almost crazy!

[Buckhead]

Cleaning a rifle down to bare metal is way over-rated.
If it's shooting good leave it be.

[260 Rem]

Among those to whom I have spoken regarding cleaning frequency, I don't think I have ever been told of them going many more than 50 rounds between cleaning their center fire rifle bores. Of course, the exceptions are semi-auto shooters. Personally, I think the key to noticing accuracy falling off may have a lot to do with expectations?

[HowSwedeItIs]

Originally Posted by sure as shootin'

From what I've read achieving copper equilibrium in your rifle barrel is super important when it comes to POI but as others have mentioned some guns have excellent accuracy after taking just one fouling shot to rid the gun of any cleaning/maintenance products (ie. gun oil) whereas others may take up to a box. It appears that my .308 has better accuracy with at least that or more through the pipe,,,,at least with this cheapo surplus ammo.

The thing is,,,, I don't know how many rounds I can actually send down the pipe before accuracy starts to go south. I have heard that some guys who own .308's can shoot between 500-1000 rounds before that happens.

Sounds almost crazy!

Definitely worth taking some notes at the range! Will have to let the copper build for a bit and see how it goes. Can't hardly get better than 1.75 moa (factory) myself. Crazy indeed! They must do some serious shooting if they can put that many rounds down range and remember the size of their groups throughout

[tikybear]

It makes a big difference when you have a good hand lapped barrel and there is no tool marks and inperfections to have to fill up with copper carbon ect. If u have a good barrel to start with that is hand lapped you will soon see the difference. when you have a barrel that shoots a clean shot next to a fouled one two and more u know it is hand lapped. A hand lapped barrel gets tighter towards the end of the barrel and then u know the job was done right. Just my two cents worth hope that helps>

[Hotwheels81]

Originally Posted by HowSwedeItIs

Definitely worth taking some notes at the range! Will have to let the copper build for a bit and see how it goes. Can't hardly get better than 1.75 moa (factory) myself. Crazy indeed! They must do some serious shooting if they can put that many rounds down range and remember the size of their groups throughout

Most keep a log book of every shot...

[HowSwedeItIs]

Originally Posted by Hotwheels81

Most keep a log book of every shot...

I'm sure they do

[Buckhead]

Originally Posted by 260 Rem

Among those to whom I have spoken regarding cleaning frequency, I don't think I have ever been told of them going many more than 50 rounds between cleaning their center fire rifle bores. Of course, the exceptions are semi-auto shooters. Personally, I think the key to noticing accuracy falling off may have a lot to do with expectations?

I follow what David Tubb's (11 time NRA National Champion) recommends and it is nowhere near that much cleaning.

[catnthehat]

Originally Posted by Buckhead

I follow what David Tubb's (11 time NRA National Champion) recommends and it is nowhere near that much cleaning.

David Tubbs is a National Course Champion however , not a short range or long range BR shooter, the accuracy parameters are different for those disciplines than National Course .
I think you will find that the shooters that win the Super Shoot and the And the BR Nationals and World Championships have a different cleaning regimen than
Across the course shooters do.
Cat

[Au revoir, Gopher]

Originally Posted by sure as shootin'

Carbon is all that is coming out of this gun while I've been using this South African surplus ammo. I'm surprised that I'm not seeing any blue (evidence of copper) at all! I haven't a clue why? Definitely noticed it the first time I used Wipeout on my older Remmington 700.

I have seen that in an old rifle. It was like the copper and the carbon fouling were layered. I had to clean with Hoppe's #9 until the patches stopped coming out black, then I had to clean with wipeout until the patches stopped coming out blue... and repeat... and repeat... it took a while, but eventually I got to a point where no more copper or carbon was coming out.

ARG

[sure as shootin']

Originally Posted by Au revoir, Gopher

I have seen that in an old rifle. It was like the copper and the carbon fouling were layered. I had to clean with Hoppe's #9 until the patches stopped coming out black, then I had to clean with wipeout until the patches stopped coming out blue... and repeat... and repeat... it took a while, but eventually I got to a point where no more copper or carbon was coming out.

ARG

This is with a newer, one year old rifle (Sako A7).

BTW, Wipeout supposedly takes care of both carbon and copper fouling. I think I'll just let the barrel foul up somewhat and check my groupings closely next weekend. I do expect them to close up and then I'll just see how much shooting I can do before the groupings start to open up and use that as a guideline.

Of course, once hunting season is over all guns will get a good cleaning because I don't shoot over the winter,,,,,got steelheading on the brain every weekend.

[Mateo]

An interesting note on copper in barrel. I have a custom barrel that would copper pretty badly. It shoots very well, but you could easily see the copper at the muzzle. Streaks of it. I started using the VV N570 powder ( was using H1000 and H4831sc) and my copper I g problem went away. Did some research and the new VV powder has some additive that supposedly gets rid of copper. If I hadn't witnessed it, I would have marked it as marketing hype. Lots of carbon though. My patches were dirty for awhile before all the carbon was out. Kind of the opposite to H1000. The H1000 is a nice, clean burning powder.

[sikwhiskey]

Op has mentioned cheap surplus SA ammo with no copper fowling???? Are you sure the ammo is copper jacketed and not fmj?
Cheap surplus is fun for plinking, but if your getting no blue patches with wipeout I would suspect your not shooting copper jackets. Is this ammo head stamped 7.62x51 ?
There are better products for removing carbon than wipeout.

[NEWB]

Originally Posted by Hotwheels81

I've noticed this with several rifles, a friend has an SVT-40 that takes a good 60 rounds to foul up the bore and gas system to get it shooting consistently... A Norc M305 I had took a good 10-15.... Barrels have personality and so do gas systems in semi autos... You just need to get to know em.

Now is the time of the year when you will see people make the classic hunting ritual mistake...

They show up at the range with a squeaky clean rifle and proceed to lob a few down range to 100 yards or so, once happy with there group they whip out the old aluminum multi piece rod and bottle of hoppes #9 and scrub the heck outta the barrel with a bronze brush and follow it up with a couple patches and patiently wait for opening day so they can shoot towards the general direction of something....I've seen an older gentleman who dry patched cobwebs out of the barrel of a rusty old 30-30... Hasent cleaned it since before I was born... Takes his moose every fall with it... Puts an oiled patch thru it at the end of the season... Said he's never botherd to clean it as it still hits what it's pointed at...


I've got a new savage 116 aught-6 that I could scrub the rifling out of before I found the end of the copper in it's bore, I tried the whole shoot one and clean routine with it the first time I went to the range.... Darn near wore out a Dewey rod...
I've used brushes and wipeout till my wrist was sore and after 3 shots at the range I had to repeat the process again... Now I just shoot the damn thing because I honestly can't tell any diffrence between it being clean or dirty... At 60 rounds down the pipe it's still getting 1.25" 3 shot groups with factory federal 180's... Maybe I'll clean it before the season opens up.

hahahah. Guilty.

Ok, out of curiosity why is it a mistake?

I picked up a Remmington 700 SDS DM 30-06 last night took it to the range to test it out. When I got back I cleaned it. I ran the bronze brush down the barrell twice, cleaned and oiled it. I am going to the range again soon to sight it in so I am not waiting till opening day.

Anyone else can chime in on this. I am new to rifles.

Thanks in advance,

[RobF]

Originally Posted by NEWB

hahahah. Guilty.

Ok, out of curiosity why is it a mistake?

I picked up a Remmington 700 SDS DM 30-06 last night took it to the range to test it out. When I got back I cleaned it. I ran the bronze brush down the barrell twice, cleaned and oiled it. I am going to the range again soon to sight it in so I am not waiting till opening day.

Anyone else can chime in on this. I am new to rifles.

Thanks in advance,

The cleaning residue left in the barrel will change the point of impact. Best to fire a few fouling shots down the pipe and see where the POI likes to sit and leave the barrel in the slightly fouled state, ready for hunting.

[Hotwheels81]

Originally Posted by RobF

The cleaning residue left in the barrel will change the point of impact. Best to fire a few fouling shots down the pipe and see where the POI likes to sit and leave the barrel in the slightly fouled state, ready for hunting.

X2

1st round cold bore shots thru a clean barrel can be pretty wild in some rifles...
....compound that with some gun oil left in the bore raising the pressure a bit...

I've had first round fliers on a cold clean barrel stray 8" from zero... Foul it with 6 shots and come back the next day to print a tidy 1" 3 shot group with a cold dirty barrel... Was a 111 savage in 300WM... My 7-08 TC would drop the first round 4" low an 1" right.. Friends Tikka would spray 3 shots 6" left and settle in...

Test it for your self if you can, not all rifles do it but once you witness it you are very cautious of taking a clean gun out to the field.

[sure as shootin']

Originally Posted by sikwhiskey

Op has mentioned cheap surplus SA ammo with no copper fowling???? Are you sure the ammo is copper jacketed and not fmj?
Cheap surplus is fun for plinking, but if your getting no blue patches with wipeout I would suspect your not shooting copper jackets. Is this ammo head stamped 7.62x51 ?
There are better products for removing carbon than wipeout.

The casings of the ammo I'm using are made out of brass, although they are fmj rounds.

Here's a writeup on the ammo I'm using:

South African Surplus .308 (7.62x51) ammunition. Manufactured in the late 1970’s to early 1980’s. 147grn Lead core, Copper Jacketed, Non-Magnetic, FMJ Bullet. Brass Case, Non-Corrosive, Berdan Primer. .

[NEWB]

Originally Posted by RobF

The cleaning residue left in the barrel will change the point of impact. Best to fire a few fouling shots down the pipe and see where the POI likes to sit and leave the barrel in the slightly fouled state, ready for hunting.

Originally Posted by Hotwheels81

X2

1st round cold bore shots thru a clean barrel can be pretty wild in some rifles...
....compound that with some gun oil left in the bore raising the pressure a bit...

I've had first round fliers on a cold clean barrel stray 8" from zero... Foul it with 6 shots and come back the next day to print a tidy 1" 3 shot group with a cold dirty barrel... Was a 111 savage in 300WM... My 7-08 TC would drop the first round 4" low an 1" right.. Friends Tikka would spray 3 shots 6" left and settle in...

Test it for your self if you can, not all rifles do it but once you witness it you are very cautious of taking a clean gun out to the field.

Right on!

Thanks guys! I cleaned the rifle when I got back from the range. I put through maybe 8 rounds.. I cleaned the barrel initially (wiped out the oil). I will need to go back to the range and do some more testing to see. I never thought to check the accuracy before and after cleaning.


Thanks for the clarification guys.

[elkhunter11]

Originally Posted by Dick284

Every rifle is different.
Some rifles prefer clean, other prefer mild fouling.

Time spent shooting and observing, the particular rifles, behaviour, will tell you what it likes.

Exactly, each rifle is an individual, and needs to be treated as an individual. Your cleaning methods will also be a factor in how your rifle shoots after being cleaned.