Winter Kill?

[justinO]

Originally Posted by dale7637

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/...ps95399380.jpg

http://i1114.photobucket.com/albums/...ps16350733.jpg

Saw these guys today east of peace river. They have their hands full.

I started feeding the white tails at home in November. They have had a few rough years.

Good on you buddy keep it up.

[adaras]

Everything that has to do with wild life it is up to us the hunters to protect or not cause we know first hand what's going on out there.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by justinO

Adaras at least you tried to help and its sad but that will be the fate of many animals this winter.

Just because a BC vet wrote a paper does not change anything for me. I will continue to feed the animals as I have watched them feed many winters and watched them survive to feed again the next winter. I have kept a deer alive that was hit by a car and could barely walk due to supplemental feeding. Its easy to write a paper in a cozy BC library, I wonder how many hours this Vet has spent outdoors in -20-30 Alberta Winters watching, and observing our ungulates feed off of grain and bales whether in farmers fields or put out by individuals?

Wow.

So when I find them dead with full stomachs by our hay bales or the neighbors grain pile the cause of death is?

[justinO]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

Wow.

So when I find them dead with full stomachs by our hay bales or the neighbors grain pile the cause of death is?

I dont know I would need more info. What percentage of the deer died that were feeding there? What area are you in? What was the temperature? How long were the deer that died eating from those food sources? If the grain and hay is the cause there should be very few deer left in the farm country after winters.

[michaelmicallef]

Was out west of Watervally today and had 13 whitetails on the road in front of my vehicle for about two kilometres before they decided to jump the snow banks. Never seen this in my life when a whitetail doesn't want to get off the road. I stayed back as to not stress them but they really did not want to deal with the deep snow.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by justinO

I dont know I would need more info. What percentage of the deer died that were feeding there? What area are you in? What was the temperature? How long were the deer that died eating from those food sources? If the grain and hay is the cause there should be very few deer left in the farm country after winters.

Its more about the deer's physiology and there nutritional requirements.

I am in the exact area that you have hunted and claimed there was a cougar release of approximately 50 cats.

Your friends grandfather had claimed to have seen one daily but could not seem to kill it even though he was legally allowed to.

Remember that thread?

[justinO]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

Its more about the deer's physiology and there nutritional requirements.

I am in the exact area that you have hunted and claimed there was a cougar release of approximately 50 cats.

Your friends grandfather had claimed to have seen one daily but could not seem to kill it even though he was legally allowed to.

Remember that thread?

Yes I remember that thread and I also remember saying that my friends grandfather told me that. He lives and farmed the area his whole life He was told that by a F&W. He saw one cougar cross his field, not daily. I even said sorry to you specifically after you explained it not being possible and said rumors go around about cats being released? Not sure what that has to do with this?

Anyways hopefully your deer up there don't die this winter its a bad one.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by justinO

Yes I remember that thread and I also remember saying that my friends grandfather told me that. He lives and farmed the area his whole life He was told that by a F&W. He saw one cougar cross his field, not daily. I even said sorry to you specifically after you explained it not being possible and said rumors go around about cats being released? Not sure what that has to do with this?

Anyways hopefully your deer up there don't die this winter its a bad one.

No prob Justin but you have to realize that these deer evolved on natural forage not introduced high energy agricultural crops.

It helps to supplement them to a point and then after that point is reached it does as much harm as it does good.

Looking forward to having a coffee next time you are up this way.

I also give some hunting permission on our land as well.

I also want to check out that meopta scope you have as well.

[justinO]

I have only been up that way once for hunting but maybe in the future I'll be up that way wolf hunting have you been seeing any tracks? I'll be at cold lake fishing this summer thats close.
And like I said in my previous post if you want to feed the animals it is a big commitment you cannot stop and have to start as soon as season ends. And honestly i would love to find out the cause of why those animals died at your land as im sure everyone here wants to keep as many animals alive as possible. If i found deer dying due to my feed i would never do it again up until now none have died thats why I continue to do it.

[IR_mike]

Originally Posted by justinO

I have only been up that way once for hunting but maybe in the future I'll be up that way wolf hunting have you been seeing any tracks? I'll be at cold lake fishing this summer thats close.
And like I said in my previous post if you want to feed the animals it is a big commitment you cannot stop and have to start as soon as season ends. And honestly i would love to find out the cause of why those animals died at your land as im sure everyone here wants to keep as many animals alive as possible. If i found deer dying due to my feed i would never do it again up until now none have died thats why I continue to do it.

Wolves are hard to get but I had one run in front of me last sunday without a shot opportunity.

They are around.

To answer your question as stated before they are not adapted over millennia to process high energy feed.

Deer have been here forever...oats, barley, and alfalfa have not.

[Dunezilla]

Originally Posted by trophyboy

Don K, you and others like you are saints for feeding these critters during a tough winter. These poor unfortunate critters have had to endure alot of hardship in Alberta these last several years.

GOOD JOB MAN YOU ARE DEFINITELY ONE OF THE GOOD GUYS!!!!!!

You mean the last several thousand years. "These poor unfortunate critters" can survive in the cold better than you & I can. In snow they make their beds under wide pine/spruce trees where there is hardly any snow & when pickings get tough they eat the hay that the land owners put out for their horses. The horse get to watch the deer eat the hay right in front of them. One of the main reasons the Alberta deer population went up was do to warm winters between 1997 - 2009. I knew of people that feed the deer in their area & when I heard of it I said to my wife "I bet you the deer will get to rely on it & when the feed stops come spring they will eat the shrubs, flowers, juniper bush's & what not" & we warned the people however guess what the deer did eat up everything. I seen houses that had mule deer on the front yard on my way to hunting grounds & now there are 6ft fences everywhere around the bushes & what not.

I salute you folks for helping out on your land but nature will take it's course on all those wmu's where there will be no helpful food supplement.

[Smokinyotes]

Yes nature will take it's course. BUT it would really be nice to be able to hunt or see some deer next year. This is the first winter that I can remember that our fwa tractors are scratching in the snow. When the tractors are having a tough time how can you expect a 100 lb deer to find enough to eat. I am sure as heck not going to sit back and let the deer die in my area and then complain next year that there are no deer to hunt and F&W should have done something. I am sure that anyone who farms can afford to feed a few bales this winter to help supplement the deer.

[scrapper]

Originally Posted by SmokinJoe

Ya those issues are what's holding me back, seeing it thru until there's visible feed on the ground is not a problem, I have snared over half the coyotes out of the area so far, I never thought about the richness of my hay. But seeing it is over a year old, and wasn't top notch hay to begin with I can't see it being a problem. I'm far enough away from major CWD area. I have a few horn traps in the area already, so it would not be too much trouble to get a few more pounds of feed out on maitanance trips.

I don't know... Sure wish I would have planted all that winter corn I was planning on putting out last spring.

Don't listen to the nay Sayers, if you can feed then do it feed them, do it as long as you can, the alternative is not very Rosie.

[pikeslayer22]

X2 scrapper...hauld out feed this weekend...good news is the coyotes are still having a hard time getting around in this snow also

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by IR_mike

Wow.

So when I find them dead with full stomachs by our hay bales or the neighbors grain pile the cause of death is?

Wild ungulates have specialized seasonal food requirements, which they fulfill by eating a wide variety of foods from their environment. Well-intentioned people may quite literally be “killing with kindness” when they provide unnatural food items to wild ungulates.

 All ungulates are ruminants with specific bacteria in their digestive tracts, specialized to digest their specific diet. It can take weeks for ungulate digestive systems to adjust to new food items. Rapid changes, especially at critical times such as the fall, can result in death, even with rumens full of (unnatural) food.
 Dry feeds, such as hay, grains or pelleted types, are prepared for domestic livestock and meant to be used with abundant fresh water. Without ready access to water, dry feed can impact in the digestive tract and can kill wild ungulates.
 Grains, pelleted feeds or surplus fruits are high in carbohydrates/protein/energy and even small amounts can cause digestive upsets that lead to diarrhea, bloating and significant damage to ungulate digestive tracts.

[Don K]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Wild ungulates have specialized seasonal food requirements, which they fulfill by eating a wide variety of foods from their environment. Well-intentioned people may quite literally be “killing with kindness” when they provide unnatural food items to wild ungulates.

 All ungulates are ruminants with specific bacteria in their digestive tracts, specialized to digest their specific diet. It can take weeks for ungulate digestive systems to adjust to new food items. Rapid changes, especially at critical times such as the fall, can result in death, even with rumens full of (unnatural) food.
 Dry feeds, such as hay, grains or pelleted types, are prepared for domestic livestock and meant to be used with abundant fresh water. Without ready access to water, dry feed can impact in the digestive tract and can kill wild ungulates.
 Grains, pelleted feeds or surplus fruits are high in carbohydrates/protein/energy and even small amounts can cause digestive upsets that lead to diarrhea, bloating and significant damage to ungulate digestive tracts.

Pretty sure the grasses they ate all summer and fall before we baled it into 'hay' constitutes natural feed. They all look pretty happy and healthy here...
I'm sure they get their fair share of browse as well. If there's a few oats out they'll pick at them, have a bit of hay and then off to wherever they go. If it's consistent they don't gorge themselves.

[Sledhead71]

Originally Posted by Don K

Pretty sure the grasses they ate all summer and fall before we baled it into 'hay' constitutes natural feed. They all look pretty happy and healthy here...
I'm sure they get their fair share of browse as well. If there's a few oats out they'll pick at them, have a bit of hay and then off to wherever they go. If it's consistent they don't gorge themselves.

Consistent is not supplemental Don

[270WIN]

Originally Posted by Sledhead71

Wild ungulates have specialized seasonal food requirements, which they fulfill by eating a wide variety of foods from their environment. Well-intentioned people may quite literally be “killing with kindness” when they provide unnatural food items to wild ungulates.

 All ungulates are ruminants with specific bacteria in their digestive tracts, specialized to digest their specific diet. It can take weeks for ungulate digestive systems to adjust to new food items. Rapid changes, especially at critical times such as the fall, can result in death, even with rumens full of (unnatural) food.
 Dry feeds, such as hay, grains or pelleted types, are prepared for domestic livestock and meant to be used with abundant fresh water. Without ready access to water, dry feed can impact in the digestive tract and can kill wild ungulates.
 Grains, pelleted feeds or surplus fruits are high in carbohydrates/protein/energy and even small amounts can cause digestive upsets that lead to diarrhea, bloating and significant damage to ungulate digestive tracts.

Like everyone who has posted on here I am very concerned about the tough time our wild ungulates are having this winter, especially the deer. I was thinking about "helping them out" with some supplemental feeding on our property and that prompted me to do some research on the subject. There is a considerable amount of information about this published on the internet by various state and provincial wildlife departments in the US and Canada and every bit of it is entirely consistent with what Sledhead is saying. I also spoke on the phone with a biologist at Alberta Fish and Wildlife (or whatever they call themselves these days ) and he confirmed what Sledhead says as well.
The message from the experts is consistent across the board. They all say "Don't feed the deer unless you really know what you are doing and are prepared to carry your feeding program through to the end of the winter. Simply putting out some hay or grain for them might seem to be the kind thing to do but in most cases will likely do more harm than good" (for all the same reasons that Sledhead mentions).
The experts say that more can be accomplished by providing the animals with good quality habitat, proper hunting, minimizing stress (by leaving them alone at this time of year) and predator control. That's pretty much been my approach in previous years and I've decided to carry on with it this year. For what it might be worth, I've actually thought that the winter kill losses in our area of the province haven't been that bad in spite of the fact that two of the last three winters have been pretty harsh.

[Smokinyotes]

So if we are not supposed to let them eat hay how do we get them to quit eating in the alfalfa fields all spring summer and fall? With as much snow as we have it's just not realistic to expect them to live when they can hardly move never mind find anything to eat. They were eating in our field all year till the snow got too deep, it's a food source that they probably have become dependent on.. To fence off the bales and not feed them any would just be plain cruel IMO.

[pickrel pat]

Sledhead speaks with straight tongue. Everyone please read his latest posts......twice.